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/ S3 


ON  THE 

CONVENTION  QUESTION, 

IN  THE 

V 

of  ^0mm0m 

OF  THE 

LEGISLATURE  OF  NORTH- CAROLINA  j 

Dec.  18  ^ 19,  1821. 


TAKEN  IN  SHORT-HAND  BT 

JOSEPH  GALES. 


jj.  (Ol-  iL  , 

T!llt  ’ 


ItALEIGff: 


PRINTED  BT  J.  GALES  & SOR. 


182». 


DEBATE 


03T  THE  . 

CONVENTION^  QUESTION. 


HOUSE  OF  COMMONS, 

Bee.  18,  1821. 

The  House  formed  itself  into  a committee  of  the  whole,  Mr. 
Brickell  in  the  Chair,  on  the  following  Resolutions,  submitted 
by  Mr.  Fisher,  from  Salisbury,  on  the  1 1th  instant : 

1.  Jtesolved  hy  the  General  Assembly  of  JVorth-CaroUiia,  That  the  repre. 
sentation  of  the  people  of  this  State  in  both  branches  of  the  Leg^islature, 
under  the  present  Constitution,  is  greatly  unequal,  unjust,  and  anti-republican. 

2.  Itesolved,  That  the  Constitution  ought  to  be  so  amended  as  that  each 
citizen  of  the  State  should  have  an  equal  share  in  the  rights  of  represen- 
tation upon  the  principle  of  free  white  population  and  taxation,  or  of  free 
white  population,  including  three-fifths  of  all  other  persons. 

3.  Therefore,  Resolved,  That,  at  the  next  Election  for  Members  of  the  As- 
sembly, the  people  of  this  State,  who  are  entitled  to  vote  for  Members  of 
the  House  of  Commons,  be  invited  to  vote  at  the  said  election,  whether  they 
are  in  favor  of  a Convention,  or  not,  by  writing  on  their  ticket.  Convention, 
or  JVo  Convention. 

4.  Resolved,  That  the  Sheriff  of  each  County  in  this  State,  or  other  re- 
turning officers,  be  and  they  are  hereby  directed,  immediatel}'^  after  the  next 
election,  to  ascertain  the  number  of  votes  given  for  or  against  a Convention, 
and  to  make  out  a correct  statement  thereof,  and  transmit  the  same  to  the 
Governor,  to  be  laid  before  the  next  Assembly. 

Mr.  Fisher  said,  before  be  entered  upon  the  subject  of 
the  Resolutions,  he  must  express  bis  thanks  for  the  very  cour- 
teous manner  with  which  the  House  had  thus  far  treated  his 
proposition.  He  could  not  forbear  contrasting  their  conduct 
on  this  occasion  with  that  of  another  body  not  far  off ; and 
he  was  proud  that  the  comparison  redounds  so  much  to  the 
advantage  of  this  House.  When  a member,  said  Mr.  F.  riseS 
in  his  place,  and  submits  a respectful  proposition,  it  is  nothing 
but  justice  to  give  him  an  opportunity  of  delivering  his  rea- 
sons in  its  favor — it  is  common  courtesy  to  let  him  be  heard. 
But  for  the  majority  to  arrest  it  at  the  threshold,  and  at  once 
put  it  down,  is  neither  justice  nor  courtesy.=^  Majorities 

* Mr.  F.  alluded  to  the  conduct  of  the  Senate.  When  Mr.  Williamson 
introduced  Resolutions  similar  to  those  of  Mr,  F.  that  body  refused  to  refer 
them  to  a committee  of  the  whole  House,  or  even  to  lay  them  on  the  table, 
but  showed  a disposition  to  reject  them  at  once.  On  the  next  day,  however, 
they  agi'ced  to  conaider  the  Resolutions. 


4 


should  reniemher,  that  minorities  too  have  rights.  And,  Sir, 
when  the  majority  of  a deliberative  Assembly,  in  the  true 
spirit  of  tyranny,  prohibits  debate,  gloomy  indeed  is  the  pros- 
pect of  an  impartial  decision  at  such  a tribunal.  In  looking 
in  on  sucl)  a body,  we  are  almost  tempted  to  say,  as  is  said 
ot  Dante’s  Hell,  “ Hope  never  enters  here.”  But,  if  one 
brancli  of  tlie  Legislature  has  shewn  us  that  we  have  nothing 
to  liope  from  them,  we  may  rejoice  that  prospects  are  more 
promising  here — that  in  this  House,  we  will  at  least  be  de- 
cently heard.  Mr.  F.  said  he  regretted  the  occasion  that  had 
called  forth  these  remarks.  He  would  now  proceed  to  the 
subject  before  tlie  committee. 

Sir,  whenever  a Convention  is  talked  of,  we  immediately 
bear  the  cry  of  the  sacredness  of  tlie  Constitution — that  it  is 
the  work  of  our  forefathers,  and,  therefore,  it  is  next  to  sacri- 
lege to  touch  it.  This  cant  is  the  chief  argument  used  by 
many  against  calling  a Convention,  and,  as  there  are  some 
well-meaning  persons  on  w hom  it  has  influence,  Mr.  F.  said 
he  would,  in  the  first  place,  call  the  attention  of  gentlemen  to 
the  circumstances  under  which  the  Constitution  was  formed, 
and  see  if  these  were  the  most  favorable  for  the  accomplish- 
ment of  a woi'k  of  such  magnitude.  He  would  then  proceed 
to  point  out  some  of  the  defects  of  the  Constitution  requiring 
amendment. 

When  we  consider  the  state  of  things  under  w hich  the  Con- 
stitution was  framed,  it  would  be  a miracle  were  it  otherwise 
than  defective.  The  whole  continent  was  full  of  confusion  j 
in  our  own  State  moi-e  particularly,  the  difference  of  opinion 
among  the  people  ran  high.  The  majority,  it  is  true,  were 
in  favor  of  the  new  order  of  things,  but  there  were  many  that 
still  adhered  to  the  old  ; — and  all,  from  habits,  from  educa- 
tion, and  early  feelings,  were  strongly  attached  to  the  princi- 
ples of  the  British  Government — they  still  thought  that  the 
British  Constitution  and  forms,  were  the  wisest  and  the  best. 
Sir,  if  it  w as  necessary  to  stop  by  the  way  to  prove  the  exis- 
tence of  these  feelings,  proofs  are  abundant.  The  very  Con- 
gress that  framed  the  Constitution  furnish  pi-oofs.  That 
body,  in  the  most  solemn  manner,  signed  a tc^t  in  which  these 
attachments  wei-e  declai-ed.  The  Congi-ess  that  met  at  Hills- 
borough, only  twelve  months  befoi-e,  also  furnish  proofs  : 
they  in  like  manner  signed  the  test,  acknowledging  the  Bri- 
tish Constitution  and  Laws.  [Here  Mr.  F.  read  several  ex- 
tracts fr-om  the  .Journals  of  the  Congresses  of  Hillsborough 
and  Halifax,  to  shew  the  feelings  that  prevailed  in  those  bo- 
dies, and  their  high  estimation  of  the  forms  and  laws  of  the 
mother  country.]  But,  continued  he,  besides  these  feelings^ 


5 


atrongly  inclining  that  body  to  the  adoption,  in  the  new  Con- 
stitution, of  British  and  Provincial  forms  and  principles,  there 
were  still  many  other  embarrassments  that  surrounded  them. 
They  were  engaged  in  a work  to  them  new ; — new  indeed  to 
the  world.  History  furnished  no  example  where  any  people 
liad  met  together,  under  like  circumstances,  to  frame  a govern- 
ment for  themselves.  Constitution-making  was,  as  yet,  but 
little  known.  They  were  without  the  light  of  experience,  or 
the  benefit  of  the  examples  of  the  other  States  ; for,  as  yet, 
but  few  of  the  States  had  formed  their  Constitutions.  Under 
circumstances  like  these,  is  at  at  all  surprising  that  the  Con- 
gress at  Halifax  should  form  a Constitution  partaking  largely 
of  the  features  and  forms  of  the  British  institutions  ? Indeed, 
it  was  their  design  and  policy  to  do  so,  in  order  that  it  might 
be  the  more  acceptable  to  all  classes  of  the  people.  In  an 
address  published  by  the  Congress  of  Hillsborough,  to  the 
British  people,  we  find  the  following  sentiment.  “ Whenever- 
we  have  departed  from  the  forms  of  the  Constitxition,  our  own 
safety  and  self-preservation  have  dictated  the  expedient” 

But  there  is  another  fact  that  must  be  considered  on  tin's 
part  of  the  su  ject.  ‘Mr.  F.  said,  until  within  a short  time, 
he  had  all  along  entertained  the  opinion,  that  the  Congress  of 
Halifax  had  been  chosen  and  convened  for  theexpi'ess  and  sole 
purpose  of  forming  a Constitution.  This  was  far  fi*om  being 
the  case.  Judging  from  the  Journals  of  that  body,  the  for- 
mation of  a Constitution  seems  to  have  been  but  a minor  ob- 
ject of  their  attention.  The  Congress  met  and  proceeded  to 
business.  In  a few  days,  a committee  was  raised  for  the  pur- 
pose of  draughting  and  reporting  a Bill  of  Rights,  and  the 
form  of  a Constitution.  The  Congress  then  resumed  its  other 
business,  of  which  it  had  a vast  crowd,  such  as  naturally 
arose  out  of  the  state  of  the  times,  and  the  situation  of  the 
country.  Thus  they  went  on,  until  the  committee  reported 
the  form  of  a Constitution  and  Bill  of  Rights,  which  were 
examined,  amended,  passed  at  short  intervals  their  several 
readings,  and  finally  adopted.  Judging  from  the  Journals, 
the  whole  time  bestowed  by  the  Congress  on  that  subject,, 
could  not  have  equalled  more  than  three  or  four  days,  at  the 
most ; and,  out  of  two  quires  of  paper  containing  the  Jour- 
nal, not  more  than  three  pages  are  taken  up  with  the  pro- 
ceedings on  the  subject  of  the  Constitution.  After  the  adop- 
tion of  the  Constitution,  the  Congress  continued  in  sessioir 
for  some  time,  devoting  its  attention  to  the  many  interesting 
and  embarrassing  subjects  before  it: — such  as  raising  troops, 
providing  the  ways  and  means,  hearing  memorials,  and  set- 
tling the  inteimal  condition  of  the  State.  These  things,  said 


( 


6 


Mr.  F.  I only  mention,  to  shew  the  pressing  difficulties  that 
engaged  the  attention  of  tlie  Congress,  and  how  utterly  im- 
possible  it  was  for  them  to  bestow  that  time  and  deliberation 
npon  llie  formation  of  the  Constitution  that  its  great  impor- 
tance required.  Indeed,  the  examination  of  the  journals  con- 
nected witli  the  consideration  of  these  circumstances,  must 
satisfy  every  impartial  mind,  that  the  framers  of  the  Consti- 
tution only  intended  it  as  a temporary  work — one  that  the 
people  would  examine,  alter  and  amend,  when  the  troubles  of 
war  would  pass  away,  and  the  sunshine  of  peace  be  restored. 
But  grant,  for  a moment,  that  the  Congress  of  Halifax  design- 
ed this  as  a permanent  Constitution,  then  we  must  recur  to 
still  other  circumstances  to  shew  how  next  to  impossible  it 
was  for  them  to  form  a Constitution  that  would  suit  the  future 
condition  of  tlic  State.  The  same  feelings  that  now  are  call- 
ed Eastern  and  Western,  then,  and  long  before,  existed  in  the 
Province  of  North-Carolina.  If  they  existed  among  the  peo- 
ple, it  is  reasonable  to  presume  that  they  w'ere  not  absent  from 
the  Congress  of  Halifax.  Indeed  the  journals  of  that  body 
furnish  j)roofs  of  the  fact.  In  the  several  Congresses  before 
that  of  Halifax,  the  votes  were  always  taken  by  “Counties 
and  Towns.”  In  that  of  Halifax,  a proposition  was  made  to 
change  the  mode  so  as  that  each  individual  member  should 
have  one  vote.  For  this  jsroposition  every  Westei-n  County 
voted — Against  it,  none  but  the  smallest  counties  in  the  East 
voted.  In  the  Congress  that  adopted  the  Constitution,  36 
counties  were  represented  ; of  tlicsc,  only  ten  were  Western  : 
All  that  wide  range  of  countiy  lying  west  of  Raleigh,  was 
then  divided  only  into  ten  counties.  That  body  being  thus  com- 
posed, suppose  that  an  elfort  had  been  made  to  fix  the  princi- 
ples of  rej)rcsentation  on  othei*  basis  than  the  present,  what 
would  have  been  the  result?  The  same  feeling  that  will  in- 
fluence members  on  these  resolutions  would  have  put  it  down ; 
the  vote,  in  all  probability,  would  have  been  26  against  10. 

These,  Sir,  said  Mr.  F.  were  the  circumstances  under  which 
our  State  Government  was  formed  ; and  this  accounts  for 
Ihc  features  of  aristocracy  that  appear  throughout  the  Con- 
stilulion.  In  fact,  few  indeed  were  the  alterations  that  the 
Constitution  made  in  the  then  existing  laws  and  polity  of  the 
Province  : even  the  names  were  retained.  The  judicial  de- 
paitnient  was  but  little  altered: — and  the  Legislature  not 
much  moi-e,  except  that  instead  of  the  House  of  Burgesses,’” 
the  popular  brand!  is  called  “ llte  House  of  Commons,”  a 
name  as  aj)propriate  lor  this  branch,  as  the  House  of  Lords 
would  be  for  the  Senate.  The  GeneralJissembhj  was  the  term 
by  which  the  Legislalure  was  called  under  the  Provincial 


7 


Government,  and  it  is  retained  in  the  Constitution.  The 
qualification  of  fifty  acres  of  land,  and  the  representation  by 
counties,  were  taken  from  the  laws  of  the  Province.  In  short. 
Sir,  the  Provincial  laws  and  customs  were  the  materials  out 
of  which  the  Constitution  was  built,  and  the  Constitution  is 
but  little  more  than  a compilation  from  these  materials.  And 
this  is  the  monument  of  wisdom  that  we  are  told  it  is  sacri- 
lege to  touch  ! Sir,  it  is  right  to  reverence  the  work  of  our 
forefathers,  but  its  being  their  w ork  does  not  make  it  perfect : 
like  ourselves,  they  were  erring  men  ; nor  do  I Isold  with  the 
maxim  of  the  “ Holy  Alliance,”  that  “ whatever  is  ancient^ 
is  good.’*  Even  admitting  that  the  Constitution  was  the  best 
for  the  times  in  which  it  was  made,  sure  its  framers  w'ere  not 
political  prophets  to  foresee  that  it  could  suit  equally  well  the 
conditions  of  future  generations. 

The  old  Congress,  said  Mr.  F.  that  framed  the  articles  of 
Confederation,  the  first  American  Government,  was  a body 
of  men  never  surpassed  for  warmth  of  patriotism,  clearness 
of  intelligence,  and  force  of  sagacity ; and  yet.  Sir,  these  men, 
with  all  their  wisdom  and  foresight,  formed  a government 
that  in  a few  years  began  to  tumble  to  pieces : — to  save  our 
infant  republic,  a new  Convention  was  called,  and  a new 
Constitution  was  adopted.  How  is  it  then,  that  the  sages  of 
the  old  Congress  failed  in  their  first  government,  and  that 
the  Congress  of  Halifax,  should,  at  once  have  reached  tlie 
point  of  perfection  ! It  is  not  so ; — our  Constitution  is  full  of 
defects  ,•  and  I will  now  proceed  to  point  out  some  of  them. 

To  dwell  upon  all  the  defects  of  the  Constitution,  said  Mr. 
F.  w ould  require  more  time,  than  he  could  at  present  command. 
He  would,  therefore,  only  take  up  a part,  and  leave  a wild 
field  for  his  friends  to  occupy. 

Of  all  the  objectionable  parts  of  our  Constitutioii,  the  system 
of  representation  is  the  most  unjust  and  oppressive.  Upon 
this,  said  he,  I shall  confine  my  remarks  ; and  for  the  sake 
of  being  better  understood,  I*  hall  consider,  1st.  The  repre- 
sentation of  the  people.  2dly.  The  representation  of  proper- 
ty ; for  the  theory  of  the  Constitution  seems  to  be,  the  repre- 
sentation of  the  people  in  one  branch  of  the  Legislature,  and 
of  property  in  tlie  other. 

1st.  Then  as  to  the  representation  of  the  people.  And  here 
be  it  said,  that  in  practice,  the  people  are  not  i-epresented  at 
all.  It  is  not  the  people,  in  the  true  meaning,  it  is  the  counties, 
that  are  represented.  If  the  people  were  represented,  num- 
bers w'ould  form  th  e basis  of  the  system.  The  counties  are 
as  much  represented  in  this  House  as  the  States  are  in  the 
Senate  of  the  LT.  States ; but  not  upon  the  same  principles. 


8 


01’  with  tlicsamc  propriety.  The  States  are  distinct  sover'eigti-' 
tics,  and  it  is  by  coin|)i’omise  that  they  all  have  an  equal  weight 
in  tlie  Senate  of  the  Federal  Legislature  ; not  so  as  regards  the 
counties.  There  is  not  a greater  disparity  between  the  popu- 
lation of  Rhode  Island  and  New'-York,  than  there  is  between 
Columbus  .and  Row'an ; and  yet,  in  that  branch  of  the  Fede- 
ral Legislature  where  the  people  are  represented,  Rhode 
Island  has  only  two  members,  \ijiile  New-York  has  twenty- 
seven  : but  here  in  both  the  Senate  and  Commons,  Columbus 
has  as  many  members  as  Rowan — so  that  it  is  not  the  peo- 
ple, as  a relative  part  of  the  whole,  but  the  counties,  as  a kind 
of  separate  governments,  that  are  represented.  The  original 
of  this  feature  in  the  Constitution  will  be  seen,  when  it  is  re- 
membered that  counties  in  the  first  settlement  of  the  province, 
were  separate  and  distinct  governments — we  have  altered  the 
theory,  but  retained  the  practice.  This  then  is  a relic  from 
the  old  colonial  system  ; but,  Sii’,  come  from  where  it  may,  it 
is  a system  under  the  operation  of  which,  our  State  govern- 
ment has  ceased  to  be  a Republic,  and  become  a complete  and 
perfect  aristocracy.  What  is  an  aristocracy,  but  where  the 
few  goxern  the  many  ? Is  it  not  essential  in  a Republic  that 
all  the  citizens  of  the  same  grade  of  qualifications  should  have 
an  equal  participation  in  the  rights  and  privileges  of  the  go- 
vernment ? — and  that  a majority  shall  rule  ? No  government 
where  these  principles  are  absent,  can  merit  the  name  of  a 
Republican  government ; and.  Sir,  it  will  not  be  difficult  to 
prove  that  this  is  the  case  under  our  Constitution.  To  show 
that  it  is,  said  Mr.  F.  I ask  your  attention  to  a few  calcula- 
tions bottomed  on  the  last  Census,  and  on  the  revenue  laws  of 
the  State.  Let  me  here  premise,  that  in  all  calculations  made 
on  population,  the  free  population  alone  is  taken  ; for  that  is 
the  only  population  entitled  to  representation  under  the  Con- 
stitution ; and,  when  gentlemen  are  contending  for  the  per- 
fection of  that  instrument,  the^  surely  will  not  wish  to  as- 
sume data  not  recognised  by  it.  Slaves  are  not  felt  in  our 
Legislature,  either  as  population  or  as  property  ; and  where 
calculations  are  made  to  shew  the  operation  of  the  system,  wc 
must  confine  ourselves  to  the  provisions  of  that  system.  Mr. 
F.  said  he  made  these  remarks,  because  some  gentlemen  may 
wish  to  assume  the  federal  numbers  as  the  data  of  calculations 
— an  assumption  which  he  could  not  admit. 

View  I.  The  State  is  divided  into  62  counties,  of  very 
unequal  extent  and  population, — yet  each  sending  to  the  Le- 
gislature the  same  number  of  membei’s — making  in  all  193, 
including  tlie  borough  representation.  The  free  population 
of  the  State  is  433,912  souls,  which,  divided  by  the  number 


9 


of  members  in  the  Legislature,  gives  to  each  member  2248 
souls : or,  in  other  words,  every  2248  souls,  upon  princi- 
ples of  equality,  would  be  entitled  to  one  representative. 
Take  this  then  as  the  ratio  of  one  member,  and  Imvv  will  the 
result  appear  ? — Why!  The  counties  of  Washington,  Jones, 
Greene,  Chowan,  Columbus  and  Brunswick,  each  would  be 
entitled  to  one  member,  while,  upon  the  same  calculation. 
Rowan  would  obtain  9,  and  Orange  7 members.  But  take 
the  free  population  of  Greene  or  SVashington,  as  the  ratio 
that  shall  send  3 members  ; and,  then,  each  of  the  little  coun- 
ties just  named,  will  retain  their  3 members,  while  Rowan 
will  send  27,  Orange  22,  and  the  other  large  counties  in  due 
proportion. 

View  II.  To  the  six  counties  just  named,  add  Tyrrel, 
Martin,  Lenoir,  Hyde,  Gates  and  Carteret,  making  twelve 
counties.  These  twelve  counties  contain  a population  of 
38,037  souls,  while  Rowan  and  Orange  contain  37,967,  near- 
ly the  same  amount ; but  these  twelve  counties  send  36  mem- 
bers, and  Rowan  and  Orange  only  6,  exclusive  of  the  borough 
representation. 

View  III.  We  have  seen  that  twelve  small  counties  con- 
tain 38,037  souls  ; contrast  this  with  the  population  of  twelve 
large  counties,  viz ; Rowan,  Orange,  Lincoln,  Guilfoi*d, 
Mecklenburg,  Stokes,  Rutherford,  Burke,  Iredell,  Randolph, 
Surry  and  Wake,  with  a population  of  156,726.  Thus  38,037 
souls  in  certain  small  counties,  send  as  tnany  members  to  the 
Legislature  as  1 56,726  souls,  existing  in  a like  number  of 
large  counties — the  twelve  large  counties  contain  118,689 
souls  more  than  the  twelve  smaller  ones. 

View  IV.  The  counties  of  Washington,  Jones,  Greene, 
Chowan,  Brunswick,  Columbus,  Tyrrel,  Martin,  Lenoir, 
Hyde,  Gates,  Carteret,  Ashe,  Beaufort,  Bladen,  Bertie,  Cam- 
den, Currituck,  Franklin,  Hertford,  Haywood,  Moore,  North- 
ampton, Nash,  New-Hanover,  Onslow,  Pitt,  Pasquotank, 
Perquimons,  Warren,  Wayne,  Person  and  Richmond,  in 
number  33,  contain  144,928  souls,  just  about  one-third  of  the 
free  population  of  the  State  ; yet  they  send  99  members,  whiclr 
is  a majority  of  the  whole  Legislature  ! Does  it  not  plainly 
appear,  from  this  view  of  the  subject,  that  one-third  of  the  po- 
pulation of  the  State  completely  govern  and  control  the  other 
two-thirds?  What  is  this  but  aristocracy  ? The  few  govern- 
ing tlie  many : one  third  controling  two-thirds — making  all 
the  laws — a])pointing  all  the  officer's,  judicial,  executive  and 
military  ? Again  : the  eleven  large  counties  (omitting  Wake) 
enumerated  in  view  3d,  also  contain  about  one-third  of  the 
free  population  of  the  State,  viz.  144,041  souls  : but  these  are 

n 


10 


ciiiilloci  onij  to  33  inombers,  or  G6  loss  lliiiii  what  tlic  sanie 
aiummt  of|)opiilation,  iii  another  part  of  the  State,  is  entitled  to. 

Is  this,  said  Mr.  F.  justice,  or  is  it  j-epuhlicanisin  ? Is  this 
.a;i\  in:;  to  the  citizens  of  different  sections  of  the  State  an 
equal  particii)ation  in  the  rights  and  privileges  of  the  goveni“ 
nicnt  ? Surely  not.  But  perhaps  this  system  has  its  jjallia- 
tives  ! Since  wc  have  not  an  equal  voice  in  making  the  raw-s 
atid  appointing  the  oUicers  for  their  execution,  perhaps,  hy 
Avay  of  atonement,  w^e  are  exempted  from  hearing  an  equal 
share  of  the  hurdens  of  the  State  ? No,  sir,  we  pay  our  full 
shai’e  of  the  taxes,  and,  in  times  of  danger,  w'e  furnish  our  full 
quota  for  the  public  defence..  Yes,  we  arc  taxed  hy  popula- 
tion— hut  we  ai’e  represented  by  Counties.  What  would  gen- 
tlemen say,  were  wc  to  propose  as  a law,  that  each  county  in 
the  State  should  pay  the  same  amount  of  Taxes  into  the  Trea- 
siny,  and  in  times  of  war,  that  each  county  should  furnish 
the  same  number  of  men  for  defence  ? We  would  soon  be 
stunned  hy  the  cries  of  injustice  ! injustice!  And,  sir,  wdierc 
would  there  be  any  thing  more  unjust  or  oppressive  in  this, 
than  that  each  county  should  have  the  same  share  in  making 
the  law  s ! But  let  us  see  the  projjortion  of  taxes  paid  hy  some 
of  the  counties,  in  comparison  with  t!)at  paid  by  othei-s.  The 
counties  of  Columbus,  Carteret,  Currituck,  Ashe,  Tyrrel, 
Wasliington,  Haywood,  Hyde,  Brunswick  and  Moore,  ten  in 
luimher,  in  the  year  1819,  from  all  the  sources  of  taxation,  as 
returned  by  the  Sheriffs,  paid  into  the  Treasury  S4,195  85  : 
while  Rowan  and  Orange  themselves  paid  within  a fraction 
of  §5,000.  But  nothing  more  strikingly  exposes  the  injustice 
of  our  system  of  representation,  than  the  fact,  that  there  are 
a number  of  small  counties  that  do  not  furnish  taxes  enough 
to  pay  the  wages  of  their  ow  n members. 

The  counties  of  Currituck,  Columbus,  Carteret,  Ashe,  Tyr- 
vel,  Hyde  and  Haywood,  in  the  year  1819,  paid  into  the  Trea- 
suiy  §2,607,  and  for  the  same  year  their  members  drew  out 
§3,441,  or  §834  more  than  was  paid  into  the  Treasury. 

Again  : for  the  year  1820, 


Hvde 

Taxes  paid  into  the  Treasury. 
fi40T  24 

Pav  draivti  out  by  Members. 
$466  90 

Tvn'el 

'384  29 

435  40 

Ha^  wood 

245  87 

530 

Cavtevet 

406  09 

449  80 

Columbus 

345  55 

383  20 

CuiTituck 

460  62 

468 

Aslie 

259  77 

472  80 

$2,509  43 

$3,206  10 

From  this  sum  of  §2,509  43  deduct  §168  50  repaid  to 
the  Sheriffs  of  those  Counties  for  mileage  in  attending  to  make 


41 


settlement,  and  you  have  the  sum  of  §2,340  93  as  the  amounl 
paid  into  the  Ti  easury  for  that  year ; while  tlieir  members 
drew  out  the  sum  of  §3,206  10,  or  §865  17,  exceed!  g the 
amount  of  their  taxes.  The  proportion  of  each  county,  the 
expenses  of  the  judicial  and  executive  branches  of  the  govern- 
ment, is  about  §4  65  annually ; which  added  to  the  §865  17 
makes  these  seven  counties  an  annual  expense  to  the  State  of 
§4,120  over  and  above  their  taxes.  At  this  rate,  from  the 
taking  of  the  census  in  1820  to  1830,  when  another  enumera- 
tion will  take  place,  they  will  have  cost  the  Treasury  beyond 
their  taxes,  the  sum  of  §41,000,  a sum  not  very  far  short  of 
the  whole  amount  of  the  taxes  of  the  last  year  on  lands  and 
slaves.  Now,  sir,  is  there  any  thing  just  or  equitable  in  a 
system  that  operates  in  this  manner  ? Is  it  not  enough  that 
we  must  permit  these  small  counties  to  equal  powers  with  the 
larger  ones — Must  we  actually  pay  them  for  making  laws 
for  us  ? 

I shall,  now,  said  Mr.  F.  leave  this  part  of  the  subject,  and 
proceed  to  the  next  branch  of  it — therepreseniation  of  property. 
It  is  a principle  now  universally  acknowledged,  that  property 
ought  to  be  felt  in  the  councils  of  the  government : not  to  have 
a predominating  influence,  but  a proportionate  weight.  One 
of  the  great  objects  in  establishing  government  is  for  the  pro- 
tection of  property,  and  nine-tenths  of  all  the  taxes  that  sup- 
port government,  are  raised  directly  or  indirectly  fropi  pro- 
perty. It  is,  then,  nothing  more  than  justice  and  good  policy 
that  property  should  liave  something  like  a relative  represen- 
tation in  the  councils  of  the  State.  Is  this  the  case  undci*  our 
Constitution  ? Is  the  w eight  of  property  gi’aduatcd  ami  repre- 
sented as  it  ought  to  be  ? Certainly  not.  One  species  of  pro- 
peidy  only  is  represented,  viz.  land ; and  the  land-holders 
have  just  double  the  weight  in  the  Legislature,  that  popula- 
tion and  every  species  of  ])roperty  jnit  togetlicr,  have.  And  to 
make  the  system  still  worse,  even  land  is  very  unequally  and 
unfaii-ly  represented  : 1st,  as  to  ^ aluo.  The  lands  of  Gates, 
Columbus,  Lenoir,  Ashe,  Haywood,  Perquimons,  Pasquo- 
tank and  Tyrrel,  containg  1,300,000  acres  of  land,  in  1815 
were  valued  at  §1,741.810.  But  the  lands  of  Rowan  alone 
were  valued  at  §1,870,142,  and  Halikix  at  §2,802,513  : And 
yet  each  of  these  jioor  counties  have  as  nmch  w eight  in  the 
Senate  as  Rowan  or  Halifax.  2dly,  as  to  extent.  Row  an  lias 
a greater  extent  of  territory  than  somefour  or  five  of  the  little 
counties  just  named — but  she  has  no  more  influence  in  the  Se- 
nate than  either  of  them.  Can  tliere  be  any  thing  more  unjust, 
than  that  the  holder  of  fifty  acres  of  the  barren  sand  banks  of 
Currituck,  or  the  rocks  of  Hay  W'ood,  n«it  worth  one  cent  pet’ 


12 


aci’e,  should  be  entitled  to  vote  for  a Senator,  wliile  the  saiuc 
pi'i\ile,{;e  Is  denied  to  him  that  owns  forty-nine  acres  of  the. 
rich  bottom  of  the  Roanoke  wortli  g50  per  acre  ! How,  sir, 
could  this  sti'ange  and  unequitable  provision  have  got  into 
the  Constitution  ? Hike  all  the  rest — a mere  copy  from  tlie 
colonial  government.  Under  that  government,  fifty  acres  of 
land  was  a qualification  to  vote  for  a Member  of  the  House 
of  Burgesses.  By  the  act  of  1764,  which  established  by  law 
the  Cluircli  of  England  in  the  Province,  fifty  acres  of  land 
entitled  a person  to  vote  for  Vestrymen;  and  by  an  act  of 
1723,  only  freeholders  of  fifty  acres  of  land  were  permitted  to 
keep  a liorse  of  a certain  description.  In  fact,  this  freehold 
of  fifty  acres,  seems  to  have  been  the  general  qualifier  for  all 
officers  among  the  provincial  law-givers ; and  perhaps  for 
this  rea^^on  it  was  carried  into  tlie  Constitution.  Thus  land 
weighs  down  population,  and  all  other  kinds  of  property  put 
together,  while  slaves,  our  next  valuable  species  of  property, 
is  neither  felt  in  the  Legislature  as  property,  nor  as  population. 

Sir.  said  Mr.  F.  have  I succeeded  in  siiewing  that  there 
are  defects  in  our  Con.stitution,  that  ought  to  be  amended  ? 
If  so,  why  not  do  it  now?  Can  there  ever  be  a season  more 
favorable  for  such  a work  than  the  present  ? We  are  at  peace 
with  oursehes,  and  the  world  ; — no  violent  factions  now  har- 
rass  and  vex  the  passions  of  the  people ; — the  public  mind  is 
at  rest,  save  on  this  one  subject ; — feelings  of  harmony  and 
liberality  reign  throughout  the  land.  It  is  a time,  indeed, 
that  invites  to  a review’  of  our  political  institutions.  It  would 
seem  as  if  the  genius  of  our  Republic  had  lulled  to  repose  the 
hydra  of  faction,  on  purpose  to  give  her  favorite  people  an 
opportunity  to  jierfect  their  sy.stem  of  government;  and,  ac- 
cordingly, w e see  our  sister  States  availing  themselves  of  the 
happy  season.  Massachusetts,  that  framed  her  government 
under  more  favorable  circumstances  than  we  did,  has,  never- 
theless, revised  her  Constitution.  Maine,  her  eldest  daugh- 
ter, has  erected  a new  one.  Connecticut,  the  land  qf  steady 
habits,  the  people  that  are  fond  of  ancient  things  and  preju- 
dices, has  re-modelled  her  government,  and  made  it  more 
republican.  The  great  State  of  New-York  has  just  completed 
the  important  work,  and  giv’en  to  the  people  a new  and  a bet- 
ter Con.stitution.  Besides  these,  all  the  other  old  States  have 
made  important  changes  in  their  Constitutions,  and  all  the 
new  States  have  held  Conventions  and  framed  governments. 
What  does  all  this  pi’ove  ? That  the  people  of  the  other  States 
do  not  consider  theii’  Constitutions  perfect ! How^,  then,  does 
it  happen  that  ours  alone  should  require  no  amendment  ? 
\nd.  Sir,  after  all,  what  is  it  wc  ask  of  you  ? Not  to  lay 


13 


violent  hands  on  the  Constitution,  tear  it  to  pieces,  and  scat^ 
ter  it  to  the  winds  of  Heaven  ! No  ! only  to  put  the  question 
to  the  penjjle.  Will  you,  or  will  you  not,  have  a Convention 
to  revise  the  Constitution  ? Even  if  you  doubt  the  propriety 
of  altering  the  Constitution,  surely  you  will  not  withhold  the 
question  from  the  )>eoj)le.  If  a majority  of  the  people  are 
opposed  to  the  calling  of  a Convention,  we  will  at  once  sub- 
mit without  a murmur  : — If  a majority  are  in  favor  of  the 
measure,  then,  surely,  there  is  Jiot  a man  on  this  floor,  so  un- 
just and  anti-republican,  as  to  pi  event  it,  even  if  he  could. 
Then  let  the  question  go  to  the  ])eopie — to  the  source  of  aU 
political  powei-,  and  whatever  they  determine,  let  us,  like 
good  republicans,  submit  to.  What  is  it  that  our  Eastern 
brethren  fear  from  a Convention  ? Are  they  afraid  to  trust 
the  people  with  their  own  rights  ? Are  the  people  of  North- 
Carolina  less  enlightened,  less  virtuous,  than  those  of  the 
other  States  ? Are  they  less  enlightened  and  less  virtuous 
now,  than  they  were  forty-six  yeai-s  ago  ? Say  not  so  ! — It 
is  a libel  on  the  State! — on  the  march  of  the  human  mind! 

But,  gentlemen  apprehend,  if  a Convention  is  called,  that 
the  power  will  fall  into  the  hands  of  the  people,  and  that  a 
majority  of  them  live  in  the  West.  Admit  it,  and  what  then  ? 
Ought  the  power  not  to  rest  with  the  people  ? And  wdiat 
have  you  to  fear  from  the  people  of  the  West  ? Are  our  in- 
terests not  the  same  ? Are  we  not  the  same  people  ? Are 
we  not  brothers  ? Can  we  in  the  West,  adopt  any  measure, 
or  pass  any  law,  that  will  injure  you,  w ithout,  at  the  same 
time,  injuring  ourselves  ? Surely  not ! No  ; we  expect  no- 
thing from  a Convention  hut  justice,  but  equal  rights  in  com- 
mon w ith  tlie  people  in  every  other  section  of  the  State ! 
These,  Sir,  are  our  claims,  and  are  they  not  just,  and  reason- 
able ? We  appeal  to  your  magnanimity  and  republicanism. 
The  rights  that  we  claim,  were  w on  by  the  joint  exertions  of 
our  forefathers.  Your  fathers  and  our  fathers  mingled  their 
hlood  in  the  same' holy  cause : they  w'on  the  boon  together. 
Why,  then,  will  you,  in  dividing,  claim  the  greater  half? 
Where  is  that  lo\  e of  justice,  and  of  right,  that  fii’od  the  bo- 
soms of  our  JS''ashes,  Davidsons,  and  Moores,  and  their  gene- 
rous compatriots  ? — Has  it  fled  forever  ? Say  not  so.  May 
it  return  and  inspii-e  our  Eastern  brethren  with  the  ijifluence 
of  that  sacred  maxim,  of  doing  unto  others  as  you  would  w ish 
others  to  do  unto  you.  It  is  all  we  ask  ; give  us  but  an  equal 
participation  with  youi’selves  in  the  rights  of  the  government, 
and  we  ask  no  more — this  we  ought  to  have,  this  we  must 
have,  and,  without  the  smallest  intention  to  menace,  I may 
add, — this  we  roill  have. 


Mi;.  Alston  saiil,  as  no  otlici*  gentlenuin  seemed  disposed, 
at  this  time,  to  ocrupy  tlie  floor,  he  hejs^ged  leave  to  submit  a 
few  remarks  for  the  consideration  of  the  committee  upon  tliis 
all-important  question.  He  said  he  had  listened  with  atten- 
tion to  the  observations  of  the  gentleman  from  Salisbury;  but 
liad  not  heard  him  state  any  grievance  which  any  portion  of 
the  citizens  of  the  State  experience  under  our  present  Con- 
stitution. Ail  that  the  gentleman  complained  of,  is  inequality 
of  representation.  But  he  did  not  state  that  any  thing  like 
oppression  was  felt  in  any  quarter  of  the  State  on  this  account. 
Nor  w'as  it  likely  that  any  real  ground  of  com])laint  on  this 
head  ivould  ever  exist ; as  the  large  and  small  counties  were 
so  situated  in  relation  to  each  othei-,  as  to  possess  an  unity  of 
feeling  with  each  other — their  wishes  were  the  same  (-n  most 
subjects  which  come  before  the  Legislature.  For  instance. 
Rowan  and  Orange  arc  large  counties;  but  they  have  Iredell 
and  Person  adjoining  to  them,  which  are  small  ones  ; and 
so  it  is  throughout  the  State  ; wherever  there  is  a large 
county,  there  is  a small  one  near  it,  wdiosc  interests  are  the 
same.  So  that  notliing  like  oppression  could  be  apprehended 
under  the  present  system.  Wliy,  then,  asked  Mr.  A.  call  a 
Convention,  and  by  doing  so  convulse  the  State  from  one  ex- 
tremity to  the  other  ? 

Connecticut,  it  was  said,  had  amended  her  Constitution, 
and  why  not  w'e  do  the  same  ? But  what  was  the  situation  of 
things  there?  Was  it  a mere  inequality  of  representation 
that  was  complained  of  ? No,  it  was  a contest  between 
Church  and  State  ; and  the  Church  had  been  forced  to  the  wall. 

The  State  of  New-York,  who  has  lately  revised  her  Con- 
stitution, had  also  been  referred  to.  There  w'as  thei-e  to  com- 
plain of,  a Couvicil  of  Appointment,  cojisisting  of  four  Sena- 
tors and  the  Governor,  which  disposed  of  every  ofiftce  under 
the  government.  But  there  is  nothing  of  this  kind  in  our 
government ; no  complaint  know  n here  on  the  subject  of  ap- 
pointment to  office. 

The  gentleman  from  Salisbury  commenced  his  observations 
by  saying  that  our  present  Constitution  w'as  foi-med  at  an 
inauspicious  period.  For  Ids  part,  if  w'c  were  to  have  a Con- 
vention, he  should  be  glad  it  could  meet  under  as  favourable 
circumstances  as  the  framers  of  tins  instilment  met.  At  that 
period,  notliing  was  heard  of  Easterii  or  Western  iitterests — 
all  were  uidted  as  a band  of  patriots  and  brothers  in  the  same 
cause.  But  wei-c  a Convention  now  to  be  held,  tlic  same 
union  would  not  exist.  Some  would  insist  on  being  repi'e- 
sented  according  to  free  pojiulation,  others  according  to  fede- 
ral numbers,  others  accoi-ding  to  the  fertility  of  our  soil. 


15 


Ami,  after  all,  he  doubted  whether  so  good  a Constitution 
would  be  produced  as  tliat  which  we  now  enjoy.  This  Con- 
stitution guards  and  protects  the  rigiits,  the  property,  and  the 
liberty  of  every  citizen ; be  he  poor  or  rich,  he  is  equally 
prote<:ted. 

The  gentleman  from  Salisbury  had  made  an  exhibition  of 
large  counties  and  small  ones,  in  oi-derto  shew  the  inequality 
of  our  present  representation.  He  would  refer  that  gentle- 
man to  the  Convention  which  sat  at  Halifax  to  form  our  pre- 
sent Constitution,  and  to  that  which  convened  in  Philadel-: 
phia  to  form  the  Constitution  of  our  General  Government. 
In  neither  of  these  bodies  was  the  distinction  made  between 
lai'ge  a!nd  small  counties,  or  large  and  small  states.  Each 
county  liad  an  equal  weight  in  the  deliberations  at  Halifax, 
as  each  State  had  in  the  Convention  at  Philadelphia. 

In  th  • Senate  of  tl»e  United  States,  the  little  States  of  Dela- 
ware and  Rhode-Island  have  an  equal  voice  with  the  large 
States  of  New-York  and  Virginia;  and  in  case  of  no  election 
being  made  by  the  people,  of  the  President  of  the  U.  States, 
the  choice  is  left  to  the  House  of  Representatives,  who  vote, 
not  according  to  their  numbers,  but  by  States  ; so  that  the 
smallest  States  have  as  much  weight  in  that  important  elec- 
tion, as  the  largest.  He  believed  the  principle  contended  for 
by  tlie  gentleman  was  new,  and  yet  had  to  be  tried,  that  is, 
of  being  entirely  represented  by  numbers. 

The  gentleman  from  Salisbury  has  undertaken  to  class  the 
several  counties,  according  to  their  eastern  or  western  loca- 
tion, stating  that  one-third  of  the  population  of  the  State,  in 
one  section,  has  more  weight  in  the  government  of  the  State 
than  two-thirds  in  the  other.  Mr.  A.  could  not  accede  to  the 
gentleman’s  plan  of  dividing  tlie  State  into  eastern  and  wes- 
tern sections.  He  denied  the  existence  of  an  eastern  and 
western  division.  Once  let  us  progress  in  the  work  of  inter- 
nal improvement,  and  if  any  sectional  division  existed,  it 
would  be  found  very  different  from  that  suggested  by  the  gen- 
tleman. If  he  were  to  divide  the  State  into  sections,  he 
should  class  them  into  four  sections,  as  follows,  viz  : Ashe, 
Wilkes,  Surry,  Stokes,  Rockingiiam,  Caswell,  Person,  Gran- 
ville, Warren,  Halifax,  Martin,  Washington,  Tyrrell,  iNorth- 
timpton,  Bertie,  Hertford,  Gates,  Chowan,  Perquimons,  Pas- 
quotank, Camden  and  Currituck,  on  the  Northern  boundary. 
He  said  he  hoped  to  live  to  see  the  day  when  the  produce  of 
each  of  these  counties  would  find  the  way  to  market  through 
the  same  channel.  There  you  find  large  and  small  counties 
completely  intermixed,  all  possessing  tlie  same  interest,  and 
havdng  the  same  object  in  view.  A lai’ge  county  nothing  te 


fcai*  from  a small  comity,  having  an  equal  weight  in  the  Le- 
gislature. He  tiierelbrc  tliought  it  sin  wise  now  to  disturb  the 
rig'ht  so  long  enjoyed,  of  counties  being  equally  rcjiresented, 
■when  nothing  like  oppression  had  ever  been  expeidenced  under 
the  system.  aive,  Franklin,  Johnston,  Nasii,  Edgecombe, 
I’itt,  Beaufort,  ilyde,  Duplin,  Wayne,  Onslow,  Greene,  Le- 
noir, Craven,  Jo  les  and  Carteret,  he  considered  connected 
together  in  their  views  and  interests.  Orange,  Giulford,  Ran- 
dolph, Chatham,  Moore,  Cumberland,  Bladen,  Sampson, 
New-Hanover  and  Brunswick,  lie  classed  as  a third  division, 
possessing  the  same  interests;  and  Buncombe,  Hayw'oood, 
Burke,  Rutherford,  Lincoln,  Iredell,  Rowan,  Mecklenburg, 
Cabarrus,  Montgomery,  Richmond,  Robeson,  Anson  and  Co- 
lumbus, as  a fourth  division.  Each  of  which  divisions  he 
viewed  as  closely  connected  in  interest,  and  in  the  various 
plans  of  public  improvement  which  had  been  contemplated  in 
the  State. 

Dividing  the  State  in  this  manner,  which  he  thought  was 
a natural  and  jn-oper  division,  there  would  be  no  danger  of 
small  counties  ojjpressing  large  ones,  and  it  was  unnecessai-y, 
therefore,  to  provide  against  so  imaginary  an  evil. 

The  remark  of  the  gentleman,  tliat  the  poor  man’s  fifty 
acres  of  barren  land,  gave  him  a pi;ivilege  equal  to  the  rich 
man’s  fifty  acres  of  the  most  fertile  soil,  he  did  not  consider 
as  a defect,  but  an  exccilcnce  in  our  Constitution.  Mr.  A. 
did  not  wish  to  live  under  a government  where  the  rich  and 
the  poor  did  not  enjoy  equal  piivileges. 

In  conclusion,  Mr.  A.  considered  our  jiresent  Constitution 
as  a rich  treasure,  bequeathed  to  us  by  our  ancestors,  and  lie 
was  desirous  of  handing  it  down  to  our  children  unimpaired. 

Mr.  J.  Hiix  observed,  that  the  Resolutions  before  the  com- 
mittee, simply  recommending  to  tiic  pec  pie  the  propriety  of 
calling  a Convention,  for  the  purpose  of':  amending  our  pre- 
sent State  Constitution,  were  such  as  he  most  willingly  and 
heartily  concurred  in  : Resolutions  well  worthy  the  attention 
and  deliberation  of  the  Legislature,  and  of  vast  importance  to 
the  welfare  and  prosperity  of  North-Carolina. 

That  objections  (said  he)  should  be  urged  against  an  un- 
dertaking of  this  kind  is  not  much  to  be  wondered  at,  parti- 
cularly, when  wc  take  into  consideration  the  situation  ol  our 
State,  and  the  great  diversity  of  interest  which  unluckily  per- 
vades  it.  But  a more  favorable  opportunity  for  effecting  an 
amendment  to  our  Constitution,  he  believed,  never  had,  aud, 
perliaps  never  wmiUl  occur.  And  if  gentlemen  were  no  /.  «iis- 
posccl  to  view  tiie  subject  with  coldness  and  indifference,  we 


17 


might  hereafter,  look  in  vain  for  its  adoption,  and  at  once 
make  k surrender  of  all  our  pretensions  to  privilege  and 
equality. 

Tliis  (he  said)  was  no  new  subject ; it  possessed  none  of 
the  charms  of  novelty  ; and,  perliaps  many  gentlemen  were 
already  so  familiarised  to  it,  that  they  were  even  now  pre- 
pared to  vote  upon  it,  without  hearing  its  discussion.  If 
however,  by  discussing,  (said  he)  any  additional  lights  can 
possibly  be  thrown  upon  it,  convincive  of  its  propriety  and 
expediency,  it  would  afford  to  its  friends  a matter  of  some 
consolation. 

Ours  is  a government,  said  Mr.  H.  which  happily  places 
all  power  and  sovereignty  in  the  hands  of  the  people.  Equal 
rights  and  equal  privileges  are  accorded  to  all  our  citizens  ; 
and  such  no  doubt  was  the  intention  of  the  framers  of  our 
present  State  Constitution.  They  wisely  provided  that  each 
district  or  county  should  be  represented  in  the  General  As- 
sembly upon  fair  and  equitable  principles,  and  all  alike  have 
an  equal  number  of  representatives.  But  it  was  not  at  that 
time  foreseen  (for  human  wisdom  could  not  foresee  all  the 
amendments  that  experience  migiit  prove  to  be  necessary) 
that  the  immense  emigration  to  the  western  parts  of  North- 
Carolina,  and  subsequent  iiicrease  of  population,  would  ren- 
der some  change  or  altei*ation  necessary,  in  order  to  sustain 
that  equality  w Inch  at  first  was  contemplated.  Hence  it  was 
that  sectional  feelings  and  prejudices  had  arisen  ; hence  it 
was  tliat  there  existed  in  this  State  an  eastern  and  western 
interest.  It  became  necessary,  therefore,  to  correct  the  pre- 
sent unequal  representation  of  the  people.  And  for  tliis  pur- 
jiose,  it  is  now  proposed  to  submit  to  their  consideration  the 
propriety  of  voting  at  our  next  election,  for  or  against  a Con- 
vention. 

Sir,  (said  Mr.  H.)  the  right  as  well  as  expediency  of  re- 
commending the  measure  under  consideration,  has  more  than 
once  been  questioned.  If,  however,  (said  he,)  the  gentleman 
from  Halifax  (Mr.  Alston,)  who  was  last  up,  or  any  other 
gentleman,  could  show  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  committee, 
that  there  existed  no  necessity  for  calling  a Convention,  he 
was  willing  to  submit.  But  if  the  weightiest  arguments  of 
gentlemen  in  the  opposition,  were  founded,  as  they  seemed  to 
be,  in  their  acknowledged  prejudice  and  pre-possession,  he 
hesitated  not  to  say  that  they  were  liable  to  the  charge  of  in- 
consistency, and  were  utterly  regardless  of  the  best  and  dear- 
est interests  of  the  State. 

Government  we  are  told,  (said  Mr.  H.)  was  instituted  for 
the  common  good— -for  the  protection,  prosperity  and  kappi- 

3 


18 


i>ess  ol'  the  people.  Tiiceciorc,  the  people  alone  liave  an  iu 
contestable  ami  imalienahle  i-ight  to  institute  g-ovcniment. 
and  to  eelbrni,  alter  or  totally  change  the  same  whenever 
their  protection,  prosperity  or  happiness  may  retpiire  it. 
Vml,  it  (said  he,)  there  was^any  thing  improper,  or  inexpe- 
dient. in  recommending  to  the  people  the  propriety  of  amend- 
ing our  present  State  Constitution,  he  for  one,  could  not  per- 
ceive it.  Tlie  course,  he  tliought,  was  perfectly  a Republi- 
can one,  as  would  readily  he  admitted  by  every  one  who  had 
any  idea  of  representative  government,  and  if  adopted,  would 
not  be  attended  with  tliose  dangers  and  diiiiculties  which 
some  imagined,  but  would  secure  to  the  citizens  of  North-Ca- 
rolina  that  degree  of  inlluence  and  power,  proportioned  to 
tlieir  numbers,  to  which  they  were  fairly  entitled  by  every 
principle  of  honor  and  justice. 

it  has  been  said,  Mr.  Cliairman,  (observed  Mr.  H.)  by 
those  who  are  unfriendly  to  a Conve>ition,  that  they  could  not 
supjjort  tlie  measure,  because  they  could  discover  no  practical 
good  which  would  result  from  it. 

If  sir,  (said  lie,)  gentlemen  really  believe  that  our  Consti- 
tution is  not  defective,  or  that  it  is  susceptible  of  no  amend- 
ment, then,  they  may  well  be  justified  in  opposing  an  altera- 
tion of  it.  But  what  (he  would  ask)  was  the  object  of  a Re- 
publican government  ? Was  it  not  to  secure  to  the  citizens  of 
a country  equal  rights  and  privileges  ? And  was  this  equality 
secured  to  the  citizens  of  North-Carolina  ? Most  assuredly  it 
was  not.  The  practical  good  effects,  therefore,  which  would 
necessarily  he  produced  hy  an  amendment  of  our  Constitu- 
tion, are  simply  these  : Our  I'^eprcseiitation  would  be  regula- 
ted in  proportion  to  our  population,  and  wealth,  if  gentlemen 
pleased  to  have  it  so  ; each  section  of  the  State  would  possess  its 
due  weight  and  influence  in  the  Legislature,  and  all  parties 
would  be  placed  precisely  upon  an  equal  footing.  But,  perhaps, 
even  this  arrangement  would  not  be  agreeable  to  ail ; for  it 
would  he  proposing  to  the  members  of  the  east,  who  at  present 
rule,  to  surrender  up  a portion  of  their  power,  and  such  applica- 
tions were  well  known  to  he  unw  holesome,  and  seldom  attend- 
ed with  success,  whetiier  to  individuals  or  States.  It  was  to 
be  hoped,  however,  that  iqion  the  present  occasion,  all  sec- 
tional feelings  and  prejudices  would  be  permitted  to  subside, 
and  the  paramount  consideration  of  the  public  good  alone  pre- 
vail. 

As  to  any  objections  (said  Mr.  H.)  which  may  arise,  rela- 
tive to  the  constitutionality  of  this  question,  tliere  can  he  no 
doubt.  We  do  not  propose,  said  he,  to  violate  the  oaths 
which  we  have  taken  to  support  the  Constitution,  by  voting 


ourselves  for  an  amendment  of  tliat  ijistrmnent.  Our  object 
is  to  shew  to  the  people  its  defects,  and  to  suggest  a remedy. 
And  where  he  would  ask,  was  the  impropriety  of  such  a mea- 
sui’e  ? Where  the  political  profanation  which  was  committed 
by  such  a transaction  ? Other  States,  said  he,  had  never  liesi- 
tated  to  diange  tlieir  Constitutions  whenever  the  public  good 
required  it ; and  lie  could  not  conceive  wliy  Nortii-Carolina 
should  forever  remain  hehind,  indifferent  to  her  own  interest 
and  her  own  dignity. 

Mr.  H.  said  he  felt  great  anxiety  upon  tliis  subject,  because 
he  believed  no  course  was  better  calculated  to  enhance  tlie 
credit  and  promote  the  general  interest  of  the  State.  But  ho 
would  now  resume  his  seat,  in  order  to  afford  to  others,  better 
qualified  than  himself,  an  opportunity  of  expressing  their  sen- 
timents upon  it. 

Mr.  Hawks  acknowledged  the  importance  of  the  subject 
under  consideration,  and  rejoiced  with  the  gentleman  from 
Salisbury,  (Mr.  Fisher,)  that  the  House  had  manifested  a dis- 
position to  give  to  it  the  consideration  w hich  that  impoi-tance 
demanded.  The  Resolutions  before  the  committee  contem- 
plated nothing  less  than  to  demolish  at  once,  tiie  Yciierable 
institutions  of  our  fathers,  and  to  substitute  in  their  stead, 
that  which  might  result  from  the  superior  wisdom  of  their 
sons ; and  under  such  circumstances,  it  appeared  to  him  that 
the  first  enquiry  ought  to  be,  “ are  there  defects  in  our  pre- 
sent Constitution,  and  if  so,  what  arethey  ? The  gentlemen 
who  had  supported  the  Resolutions  before  the  committee,  had 
represented  that  instrument  as  “ unjust  and  anti-republican 
in  its  operations  hut,  Sir,  (said  Mr.  H.)  after  scan  liing  in 
vain  for  that  long  catalogue  of  grievances,  of  which  wc  liavc 
heard  so  much,  gentlemen  seeui,  by  their  silence  on  other 
points,  tacitly  to  admit  that  the  inequality  of  representation  is 
the  only  obnoxious  feature.  Mr.  H.  said,  he  had  been  taught 
to  believe  that  it  was  among  the  difficult  points  in  the  scieiicc 
of  governmejit  to  fix  upon  a principle  w hich  should  equalize 
representation ; hut  he  had  also  been  taught  tiiat  a system 
founded  upon  a compound  principle  (if  he  migiit  so  term  it)  of 
population  and  wealth,  approached  nearest  to  perfection,  and 
lie  now  called  upon  those  gentlemen  w lm  w'cre  wiliingto  adopt 
this  basis,  to  shew  the  inequality  and  injustice  of  the  present 
system  of  representation. — He  believed,  that  to  shew'  it  was 
impossible  ; and  if,  as  he  had  stated,  the  friends  of  the  Re- 
solutions could  find  no  other  principle  of  the.  Constitution 
objectionable,  it  behoved  them  to  pause  and  enquire  what 
they  wore  about  to  do.  Sir,  I will  answer  the  enquiry. 


20 


Wc  are  about  to  touch  with  unhallowed  hands  the  ark  of  (tin 
political  saf  ty,  to  set  in  motion  tl»e  turbulent  waves  of  fac- 
tion, and  throw  the  country  into  unparalelled  confusion, 
merely  to  gr^atify  the  caprice  of  gentlemen  who  fancy  they 
see  evils  which  have  no  existence  in  reality. 

Mr.  H.  said  he  would  leave  it  to  other  gentlemen,  who  he 
knew  would  take  part  in  this  Debate,  to  answ^er  those 
observations  founded  on  official  statements  and  numerical  cal- 
culations which  had  been  made  in  support  of  these  Resolu- 
tions. But  admitting,  said  Mr.  II.  that  the  complaint  of  our 
western  brethren  is  Just,  that  the  jiresent  I'epresentation  is  not 
altogether  equal  ; another  and  not  less  important  enquiry 
suggests  itself,  “ Is  it  expedient,  at  this  time,  to  alter  the  Con- 
stitution ; to  say  to  the  people,  assemble  in  Convention  and 
frame  for  yourselves  a new  form  of  government  ?”  He  hoped 
he  should  be  excused  for  introducing  to  the  consideration  of 
. the  committee  on  the  present  occasion,  as  connected  with  this 
view'  of  the  Resolutions,  an  extract  from  the  noblest  state  pa- 
per in  the  world,  the  Declaration  of  Independence.  “ Pru- 
dence indeed  will  dictate  that  governments  long  established 
should  not  be  changed  for  light  and  ti'ansient  causes,  and  ac- 
cordingly, all  experience  hath  shewn,  that  mankind  are  more 
disposed  to  suffer  while  evils  are  sufferable,  than  to  right 
themselves  by  abolishing  the  forms  to  which  they  arc  accus- 
tomed.” 

Forty -five  years,  said  Mr.  H.  have  rolled  over  our  heads 
since  the  establishment  of  this  Constitution. 

And  here  let  me  pause,  to  ask  w ho  w^ere  its  framers  ? They 
W'ere  those  w ho  lived  in  the  perilous  times  that  tried  men’s 
souls,  who  fought  and  bled  to  secure  the  liberties  of  their 
country,  and  who  having  once  groaned  under  the  oppressions 
of  tyranny,  best  knew,  by  contrast,  Avhat  liberty  was. 

When  he  called  to  remembrance  these  facts,  he  confessed, 
that  to  him  it  was  an  hallowed  instrument.  He  had  not  said, 
nor  did  he  mean  to  say,  it  should  be  deemed  unalterable,  but 
he  w'as  unwilling  to  alter  it  until  he  could  have  a perfect  as- 
surance that  he  would  thereby  make  it  better.  But  it  w'as 
j said,  this  is  a proper  time  for  undertaking  the  work  of  revis- 
ing our  Constitution,  that  all  is  peace,  that  no  party  feeling 
exists  in  the  country.  He  thought  very  differently,  and  when 
he  called  to  mind  the  dictatorial  language  of  the  honorable 
niembei-  from  Salisbury,  he  was  confirmed  in  his  ojiinion. 
That  gentleman  had  said,  “ let  the  members  of  this  committee 
say  what  they  please,  w'e  must  and  will  have  a Convention.” 
W hen  he  heard  such  language  as  this,  he  was  convinced  that 
this  was  no  time  for  entering  upon  the  delicate  business  of 


.ibrming  a new  Constitution.  He  must  say,  such  lan.i^uage 
pained  his  ear,  and  lie  did  not  expect  to  have  heard  it  in  this 
committee.  Assemble  a Convention,  said  Mr.  H.  and  you 
carry  into  it  all  the  exas])erated  feelings  of  the  community  at 
lai'ge,  and  particularly  of  those  who  for  many  years  have  been 
clamorous  for  a Convention.  I tell  you,  Sir,  those  feelings 
it  would  be  found  difficult  to  control.  In  the  present  embar- 
rassed state  of  the  country,  what  security  have  we,  for  in- 
stance, that  measures  would  not  be  adopted  which  would  vio- 
late the  obligation  of  contracts  ? I mention  this  as  but  a so- 
litary example,  which  at  tliis  moment  crosses  my  mind  ; God 
only  knows  the  mass  of  evil  which  might  result  from  a Con- 
stitution framed  by  angry  men,  who  forgetful  of.  what  they 
owed  to  themselves  and  posterity,  sought  only  to  bring  with- 
in their  grasp  political  power. 

Gentlemen  say,  give  us  a Convention,  and  w'e  will  give  you 
a much  better  Constitution  tlian  we  have  at  present. 

It  has  been  said,  with  as  much  beauty  as  truth,  that  “ His- 
tory is  Philosophy  teadiing  by  example.*’  Let  us  not,  then, 
shut  our  eyes  upon  the  hand  of  Philo.sophy  when  it  points  to 
the  History  of  a sister  State.  Connecticut  has  lately  formed 
for  itself  a new^  Constitution.  It  was  liis  lot,  Mr.  H.  said, 
to  reside  in  that  State  at  the  time  its  Constitution  w’as  form- 
ed, and  he  had  an  opportunity  of  observing  the  result  of  an 
experiment  in  political  cl,j  mistry  : he  had  seen  discordant 
and  heterogeneous  particles  thrown  together,  wiiich  by  no 
pi-ocess  could  be  made  to  combine,  until  ail  that  was  good  was 
precipitated  to  the  bottom,  and  there  floated  on  the  surface  a 
worthless  scum.  Sir,  said  Mr.  H.  Lbelieve  the  better  part  of 
the  people  lamented  the  adoption  of  that  Constitution,  and 
still  sigh  in  vain  for  the  restoration  of  that  good  which  they 
have  lost. 

The  gentleman  from  Salisbury  had  referred  to  the  old  ai'ti- 
cles  of  confederation,  which  having  been  found  defective,  had 
given  place  to  the  present  Constitution  of  the  United  States; 
and  this  w as  urged  as  a l eason  why  we  sliould  alter  our  Con- 
stitution. Tliose  articles,  said  Mr.  H.  were  foi-med  by  good 
and  great  men,  but  that  which  w'as  built  on  theory  it  was  found 
would  not  stand  the  test  of  practice — The  only  conclusion, 
tlierefore,  faiidy  deducible  from  this  historical  fact,  is,  that 
exjterience  is  better  tlian  theory,  and  this  conclusion  is  a wea- 
pon in  our  hands.  The  merit  of  our  Constitution  has  been 
sanctioned  by  nearly  half  a century’s  eocperience  and  w'e  are 
asked  to  desti'OA  it  to  erect  upon  its  ruins  the  speculations  of 
theorists. 


22 


But  it  is  said  to  be  aristocratic  and  and  anti-republican — 
This  is  an  extraordinary  ebar^^e  to  be  bi'ouglit  against  the 
government  of  North-Carolina.  There  are  two  men  now  liv- 
ing in  the  United  States,  who  may  be  termed  tlie  high-priests 
of  Republicanism,  Thomas  Jefferson  and  James  Madison — 
They  live  in  the  republican  commonwealth  of  Virginia,  and 
have  had  much  to  <lo  in  tlie  formation  of  its  government.  And 
how,  he  asked,  were  delegates  to  the  Vii-ginia  Legislature 
elected  ? No  man  is  entitled  to  vote  for  them  who  is  not  in 
possession  of  a freehold.  No  murmuring  voice  has  been  heard 
to  issue  from  these  gentlemen  at  tliis  state  of  things.  I have 
only  to  say,  in  conclusion,  sir,  we  mmj  live  to  see  our  Consti- 
tution revised,  and  if  we  do,  w'e  will  live  to  repent  it. 

Mr.  Mokeiiead  said,  this  subject  was  one  of  great  interest 
to  the  State,  and  on  the  decision  of  which  no  man  could  feel 
indifferent.  It  is  a (luestion  which  is  calculated  to  call  forth 
that  kind  of  public  feeling  wliich  is  necessary  for  the  welfare 
of  the  country. 

Mr.  M.  was  sorry  to  see  any  thing  like  party  feeling  intro- 
duced into  this  argument.  He  must  tell  the  gentleman  liom 
Newbern  (Mr.  Hawks)  that  he  had  misunderstood  the  remark 
of  the  gentleman  from  Salisbury,  (Mr.  Fisher)  when  he  said 
we  will  have  a Convention  ; it  was  not  the  language  of  me- 
nace, which  he  used,  but  prediction. 

If  he  could  prevail  on  his  friends  from  the  East  to  attend 
dispassionately  to  a plain  statement  of  facts,  he  should  have 
no  doubt  of  convincing  them  tiiat  our  present  representation  is 
unequal  and  unjust,  though  they  might  still  doubt  the  jiolicy 
of  the  proposed  amendment. 

But  tlie  gentleman  from  Newbern  lias  endeavored  to  excite  * 
an  alarm  in  the  committee,  which  was  calculated  to  prevent 
a fair  discussion  of  the  merits  <-f  the  question. 

Tlie  gentleman  from  Halifax,  (Mr.  Alston)  had  comjiarcd 
the  situation  of  our  lai-ge  and  small  counties  to  the  Slates  of 
New-York  and  Rhode-Island,  under  the  General  Government. 
I^Mr.  A.  explained.]  How  are  these  States  represented  in 
Congress  ? Like  the  counties  in  this  State  in  the  General 
Assembly  ? No,  Sir,  tlie  United  St.ates  are  each  of  them  dis- 
tinct and  independent  Sovereignties,  whereas  our  count ies  arc 
marked  out  by  lines  changeable  at  the  will  of  the  Lcgislatui'c. 
Congress  cannot  divide  a State,  or  interfere  with  it.  at  all. 
Mr.  M.  iiopcd,  therefore,  this  comparison  will  pass  for  nouglit. 

Do  we,  asked  Mr.  M.  see  property  represented  in  tlie  Ge- 
neral Government  ? No ; the  Senate  is  composed  of  men 
representing  the  sovereignty  of  the  several  States.  Go,  then, 


to  the  House  of  Representatives.  Is  any  thing'  like  property 
there  respected  ? No  ; notliiiig'  but  IVcemen,  with  the  excep- 
tion of  three-fifths  of  other  persons,  which  was  a matter  of 
compromise  with  the  Southern  States  at  the  time  the  Consti- 
tution was  formed. 

And  is  there  any  i-easou,  (asked  Mr.  M.)  why  property 
should  be  represented  in  this  government  ? If  so,  how  would 
gentlemen  liave  property  represented  ? How  is  the  Senate  at'^ 
pi-esent  composed  ^ Is  it  not  the  representative  of  the  landed 
interest  of  the  country  ? Is  not  this  a sufficient  representa- 
tion of  ])roperty  ? Would  you  have  your  slaves  represented 
as  in  the  general  government?  Would  you  have  property 
represented  in  both  Houses  ? If  so,  you  would  put  it  in  the 
power  of  wealth  to  dispose  of  the  destinies  of  your  country. 

But  the  gentleman  from  Newbern  says  that  Mr.  Jefferson 
and  Mr.  Madison,  whom  he  calls  the  iiigh-priests  of  Repub- 
licanism, live  in  Virginia,  where  no  person  unpossessed  of 
freehold  property  is  permitted  to  vote  for  a representative, 
yet  he  says  they  do  not  complain,  nor  are  their  unrepresented 
people  less  ready  to  fight  the  battles  of  their  country.  Sir  ? 
in  the  late  contest  with  Great-Britain  we  have  seen  the  sturdy 
yeomanry  of  Virginia  ordered  to  Norfolk  foi*  her  protection  ; 
we  have  seen  them  fall  victims  to  the  climate  and  to  expo- 
sure ; and  they  now  lie  mouldering  in  the  dust,  sacrificed 
by  the  laws  of  a counti'y  in  which  they  had  no  voice ; sacri- 
ficed by  the  laws  of  a State  in  which  they  were  legislatively 
annihilated.  Mr.  M.  said  he  admired  the  character  of  Vir- 
gitiia  ; he  reverenced  her  sages  ; but  he  hoped  he  should  not 
be  considered  as  a political  infidel,  when  he  told  the  commit- 
tee, he  shuddered  to  think,  that  the  poor  freemen  of  his  State 
should  ever  be  excluded  from  the  Legislative  councils  of  the 
country. 

To  whom,  ask  Mr.  M.  did  this  Country  belong,  when  it 
burst  the  British  fetters  and  became  independent  ? It  certain- 
ly belonged  to  the  whole  community,  and  not  to  the  wealthy 
alone.  Why,  then,  should  the  people  be  deprived  of  any  pri- 
yilege  for  which  they  jointly  fought  and  to  which  they  arc 
justly  entitled  ? 

Mr.  M.  believed,  if  he  could  assure  himself  that  the  situa- 
tion of  this  State  would  always  remain  as  it  now  is,  he  would 
not  be  in  favour  of  calling  a Convention  ; for  no  gentleman 
of  that  committee  held  the  constitution  moi'e  sacred  than  he 
did.  He  approached  it  with  that  awe,  with  which  Moses  ap- 
proach his  God  while  the  thunders  of  Sinai  were  playing 
around  him  5 he  touched  it  with  that  diffidence  with  which 
the  Israelites  touched  the  ark  of  the  Covenant.  But  thft 


24 


r<)imdalio)i  of  our  politic  al  Fabi-ic  is  rotting  ; \^c  must  repair 
it  ill  time,  or  in  time  it  will  tumble. 

Wbat,  Mr.  M.  asked,  was  the  situation  of  things  at  the 
time  when  our  present  Constitution  was  formed  ? The  East- 
ern part  of  the  State  was  almost  the  only  part  which  was  in- 
habited. The  West  had  but  few  settlers.  But  our  lands  are 
now  rising  in  value,  and  our  population  is  every  day  increas- 
ing, while  the  Eastern  pai-t  of  the  State  remains  much  the 
same.  Take  us,  said  lie,  poor  as  we  arc,  and  where  is  the 
boasted  superiority  of  the  East  ? Mr.  M.  apologized  for  this 
remark  ; but  said,  the  moment  this  subject  was  introduced, 
the  gentlemen  from  the  East  made  it  a party  tpiestioii. 

Mr.  M.  said,  he  had  made  a few  calculations  on  this  sub- 
ject, which  he  would  offer  to  the  committee.  In  this  estimate, 
he  had  given  Granville  to  the  West,  lie  had  considered 
Wake  as  neutral,  as  she  ought  to  be.  She  is  as  much  the 
darling  of  the  West  as  of  the  East.  He  had  made  his  calcula- 
tion first  as  the  gentleman  from  Newbern  wished  it  to  be,  ac- 
cording to  Federal  numbers. 

The  total  amount  of  population  (including  slaves  and  free 
persons  of  colour,  is  638,829.  The  whole  Federal  population 
of  the  State  is  556,839.  The  Federal  population  of  tlie  27 
Western  counties  is  305,013,  which  reckoning  2,993  persons 
to  send  a member,  entitles  them  to  102  members,  instead  of 
81,  which  they  now  send.  The  Federal  population  of  the  34 
Eastern  counties  is  234,100,  which  entitles  her  to  78  members 
only,  instead  of  102,  which  she  now  sends. 

The  Federal  population  of  Wake  county  entitles  her  to  six 
members.  Representation,  then,  upon  the  Federal  principle, 
entitles  the  West  to  21  members  more,  and  the  East  to  24  less 
than  they  now  send  into  the  Legislature,  and  Wake  to  3 more. 

Go  to  the  next  prineijile  of  representation ; that  of  free 
white  population  and  taxation.  The  taxes  of  the  whole  State 
(exclusive  of  clerks  and  auctioneers)  is  S65,735  60.  Taxes  of 
the  Western  counties  arc  S31,184  9 ; of  the  Eastern,  S32,203 
41  ; of  Wake  county,  S2,348  7.  Estimating  $353  for  each 
member,  and  the  Western  counties  will  send  88  : the  Eastern 
91,  and  W^ake  6. 

Go  to  the  next  branch  of  the  principle,  that  of  free  white 
population,  to  which  the  opposers  of  these  resolutions  have 
the  greatest  objection,  and  the  Western  part  of  the  State,  will 
lie  entitled  to  31  more  members  than  she  has  at  present,  and 
the  Eastern  part  to  34  less. 

For  the  total  white  population  of  tlie  State  is  419,200.  The 
Western  counties  have  253,235,  vvhich,  allowing  2,253  persons 
to  send  a member,  w ill  give  her  112  members.  The  Eastern 


25 


counties  have  154,014,  which  will  give  to  them  68  members. 
The  white  population  of  Wake  being  11,951,  gives  to  her  5 
members. 

So  that  upon  the  principle  of  free  white  population  and 
taxation  combined,  the  Western  counties  are  entitled  to  100 
members,  19  more  than  at  present.  The  Eastern  counties, 
to  79  members,  which  are  23  less  than  at  present.  Wake 
county,  to  5 members  instead  of  3. 

Then  compound  tlie  representation  of  the  Federal  popula- 
tion,, free  white  population  and  taxation,  and  the  Western 
counties  are  entitled  to  101  members,  20  more  than  at  pre- 
sent, and  the  Eastern  counties  will  be  entitled  to  79  members, 
23  less  than  at  present.  So  that,  upon  the  very  principles 
upon  wliich  the  o])ponents  of  the  resolutions  contend,  the 
West  evidently  labor  under  important  grievances.  But 
wealth  is  sufficiently  represented  in  the  Senate  to  afford  it-. 
self  prStection.  The  representation  of  our  state  should  be  upon 
the  principle  of  free  white  population,  requiring  certain  qual- 
ifications in  the  representatives,  and  in  the  electors  of  one 
branch  of  the  Legislature,  barely  sufficient  to  protect  wealth. 

Wealth  fattens  upon  the  necessities  of  poverty ; it  can 
bribe ; it  can  corrupt:  and  whenever  it  shall  have  a predomi- 
nant weight  in  our  government,  we  may  bid  farewel  to  the 
boasted  freedom  of  our  Republic,  andignominiously  submit  to 
the  yoke  of  Aristocratic  Slavery. 

Tlie  34  Eastern  counties  having  a free  white  population  of 
154,014,  send  to  the  Legislature  102  members ; the  27  Wes- 
tern counties  send  8 1 members,  which  in  the  same  ratio  of 
the  East  represent  122,229,  leaving  a balance  of  131,024  free 
wdiite'  persons,  together  with  all  the  negroes  of  the  West 
arrayed  against  the  negroes  of  the  East,  and  unrepresented. 
Add  to  this.  Sir,  the  vast  extent  of  the  West,  the  health  of  the 
climate,  the  territory  acquired  from  the  Indians,  the  vast  in- 
crease of  the  value  of  the  lands  and  wealth  of  tl)e  West,  from 
internal  improvement ; add  these  to  tlie  grievances  under 
which  we  labor,  and  ere  long  they  will  become  intolerable, 
not  only  to  patriotism,  but  to  patience  itself. 

When  I predict,  under  these  circumstances,  a Convention 
will  be  had,  can  the  prophecy  be  doubted  ? 

We  have  now  met  the  call  of  the  gentleman  from  Newbern. 
Here  is  our  grievance,  which  we  wish  to  be  attended  to. 

No  man  would  be  more  unwdlling,  said  Mr.  M.  than  my- 
self to  touch  the  Constitution,  if  I did  not  think  the  occasion 
called  for  it,  and  that  the  time  is  peculiarly  favorable.  The 
proposition  before  the  committee  ought  not  to  be  considered 
in  the  light  of  a contest  for  power.  We  do  not  ask  from  our 

4 


■20 


l^asU'ru  ItroUiren  any  to  wliicli  wc  are  not  entitled. 

Nor  woiilii  wo  ask  tor  acoiTOCtion  of  this  grievance,  ifit  were 
not  coiistar.tly  acrunuilating.  For.  to  do  our  Eastern  breth- 
ren jiisiico,  wc  acknowledge  they  have  wielded  their  power 
witli  a great  degree  of  justice  and  moderation,  and  it  is  hoped 
they  will  continue  to  do  so. 

It  will  be  to  the  East,  if  we  arc  ever  invaded.  It  may  be 
cx]iccted  your  j)r(dection  will  not  be  found  in  your  negroes  j 
it  will  he  found  in  yourselves,  or  in  the  strength  of  the  West. 

For  equal  i ig!)ts  and  privileges  our  fathers  jointly  fought, 
and  bled  and  died,  and  their  bones  now  lie  hallowing  the  soil 
for  the  freedom  of  w hich  they  fell  a sacrifice. 

But  give  us  these,  and  when  the  demon  of  desolation  shall 
hover  ai'ound  your  borders,  i?nd  the  tragedy  of  Hampton  is 
to  be  [)crformcd  on  your  shores,  cal!  on  your  brethren  of  the 

est.  and  the  mountains  will  roll  their  might  to  the  main, 
carrying  protection  to  your  wives,  your  children,  your  homes 
and  your  country. 

^Ir.  BiiACKLEDGE  observed,  that  he  had  not  intended  to 
take  any  part  in  the  debate  concerning  the  resolutions  on  the 
table  5 how  imjwrtant  soever  their  subject  matter  might  be. 
He  was  anxious  that  the  discussion  should  be  restricted  within 
very  naiTow  limits  ; for  he  feared  that  our  sectional  feelings 
and  prejudices  might  be  aroused  and  exasperated  by  a pro- 
tracted discussion  of  this  ungracious  subject.  On  similar 
occasions,  it  iiivariably  eventuated,  as  he  believed,  in  harsh 
and  angry  recrimination.  He  dreaded  these  anti-national 
feelings ; he  deeply  lamented  their  existence ; he  still  more 
lamented,  that  our  Western  brethren  should  so  studiously  fos- 
ter their  growth,  and  increase  their  aciumony,  by  annually 
thrusting  upon  us  tiiis  invidious  contest ; when  they  must  be 
sensible,  tliat  it  will  prove  both  unprofitable  and  unavailing. 
As  he  perceived,  however,  that  the  debate,  contrary  to  his 
wishes,  was  about  to  take  a very  w ide  range,  he  felt  it  due  to 
the  few  gentlemen  who  opposed  these  resolutions,  on  the  floor  j 
and  also  due  to  his  constituents,  not  to  remain  entirely  silent. 

1 do  not  intend,  (said  Mr.  B.)  to  enter  into  an  examina- 
tion, or  attempt  to  detect  and  exjiose  the  fallacy  of  the  gen- 
tlemen’s arithmetical  and  statistical  calculations.  Though 
compiled  with  so  much  care,  and  delivered  with  so  much  con- 
fidence  and  complacency,  he  believed  they  were  assailable. 
But  he  left  that  task  to  gentlemen  who  were  moi-e  experienced 
and  more  able  to  execute  it  than  himself:  he  knew  there  were 
such  gentlemen,  in  their  places,  who  were  prepared  to  meet 
them,  in  due  time,  on  that  ground  ; and  to  oppose  them  with 
statements  of  an  opposite  character. 


27 


Mr.  Chairman,  (said  Mr.  B.)  I bcc;  leave  to  call  the  atten- 
tion of  the  committee  to  some  remarks,  made  by  the  gentle- 
man from  Rockingham,  (Mr.  Morehead,)  in  reply  totlie  able 
address  which  his  friend  from  Newbern,  (Mr.  Hawks,)  had 
delivered  on  the  subject. 

It  will  be  recollected.  Sir,  that  he  (Mr.  Hawks)  had  laid 
down  as  the  proper  basis  of  representation,  a ratio  combining 
both  population  and  taxation — and,  resting  upon  tiiis  basis, 
had  called  on  the  gentlemen  in  opposition  to  shew  that  our 
present  Constitution  is  inconsistent  or  unequal.  The  gentle- 
man from  Rockingham  has  essayed  to  do  it.  ISlr.  B’s  pre- 
sent object  was  to  examine  whether  he  had  done  it  satisfac- 
toi’ily.  That  gentleman,  (Mr.  Morehead)  had  extracted  from 
his  statistical  budget,  the  facts,  that  there  were,  in  the  Wes- 
tern counties  of  the  State,  upwards  of  one  hundred  thousand 
freemen,  more  than  there  are  in  the  Eastern  counties  ; and 
that  the  Eastern  have  a greater  number  of  representatives  in 
the  Legislature,  than  the  Western  counties.  From  these  data 
he  concludes  that  the  representation  is  unequal  ; and  that  the 
Constitution  should  be  altei-ed  to  remedy  the  grievance. 
This,  surely,  is  no  answer  to  the  argument  of  my  friend  from 
Newbern.  However  correct  the  conclusion  migiit  be,  were 
we  to  assume  population  solely  as  the  basis  of  representation, 
he  needed  not  now  to  say — it  was  irrelevant  to  the  question 
now  in  issue.  But  certainly  wdien  applied  to  the  basis  as- 
sumed, to  the  question  in  issue,  the  couciusion  shot  wide  of 
the  mark  ; it  was  false  and  illogical.  But  if  the  gentleman 
insisted  that  population,  solely,  should  be  the  basis  of  repre- 
sentation, he  confessed  he  differed  from  him  essentially  as  to 
the  correctness  of  the  principle.  He  did  believe,  that  in  all 
governments,  w here  the  stability  of  its  institutions  w as  deem- 
ed important,  it  was  found  necessary  that  property,  as  well 
as  persons,  should  be  represented  in  the  national  councils. 
The  protection  of  property  was  one  of  the  strongest  incen- 
tives to  the  formation  of  political  societies  ; it  w as  one  of  the 
most  indissoluble  links  which  bound  us  together  as  a society. 
It  is  property  which  mainly  swells  the  State  and  National 
Treasury,  by  its  liberal  contributions;  without  which,  iiideed, 
both  the  State  and  the  Union  would  crumble  into  ruins,  from 
their  ow  n imbecility.  It  surely,  then,  should  be  duly  protect- 
ed;  and  it  could  not  be  property  protected  w ithout  l epresen- 
tation.  Our  own  colonial  experience  has  taught  us  this  max- 
im, that  nothing  can  be  properly  protected,  unless  its  due 
weight  is  felt  in  the' national  councils  ; and  the  experience  of 
all  nations,  who  have  bad  any  correct  notions  of  rational  li- 
berty, has  stamped  it  with  the  impress  of  truth.  Onr  govern- 


28 


nient  is  not  a tlemocrary  ; a pure  democracy  ; nor  did  !ie 
conceive  that  it  was  the  intenti(>n  of  the  framers  of  our  Con- 
stitution to  make  it  such.  It  was  impossible  that  a nation^ 
as  wealthy,  as  populous,  and  as  widely  extended  as  ours,  ever 
could  exist  under  such  a form  of  government.  It  is,  and  was 
intended  to  he,  a mixed  republic  ; in  which,  whilst  the  libe- 
rality and  freedom  of  its  j)rinciplcs  were  carefully  provided 
for,  its  stability  and  duration  were  not  neglected  ; a foiin  of 
government  as  distinct  from  democracy,  as  anarchy  was  from 
despotism.  He  hoped  it  would  remain  so — that  the  time  ne- 
ver would  come,  when  the  privileges  of  a citizen  and  a free- 
holder, would  be  conferred  on  every  vagabond  who  might 
wander  amongst  us,  for  he  distrusted  this  vagrant  patriotism — 
that  we  might  never  be  reduced  to  tlie  state  desci’ibed  by  a 
satyrist,  more  ])i*ized  for  wit  than  ingenuousness  ; a state, 
**  w here  every  blackguard  rascal  is  a king.” 

Mr.  B.  observed,  that  he  believed  the  gentleman,  (Mr. 
Morehead)  himself,  was  not  willing  to  go  the  w'hole  length  to 
which  this  principle  of  disorganization  would  lead  him.  He 
was  induced  to  believe  so  from  the  second  division  of  his  ar- 
gument. In  this  he  assumed  poj)ulation  and  taxation  com- 
bined, as  the  proper  basis  of  representation^  and  contended 
that  out  of  our  owoi  mouths  we  are  condemned.  He  begged 
leave  to  call  the  attention  of  the  committee  to  this  part  of  the 
subject.  That  gentleman,  (Mr.  Morehead)  invites  us  to  re- 
view the  Comptroller’s  report.  He  tells  us  that  from  this  it 
is  evident,  that,  (excluding  the  county  of  Wake,)  the  Western 
counties  pay  into  tlie  State  Treasury  a sum  exceeding  w hat  is 
paid  by  the  Eastern  counties ; though  by  a comparatively  small 
sum  ; in  fact,  by  what  we  may,  on  this  subject,  call  a mere 
fraction,  and  hence  concludes,  that  the  representation  is  une- 
qual, even  on  our  own  principles.  Now,  Mr.  Chairman, 
said  Mr.  B.  admitting  that  the  gentleman’s  data  are  entirely 
correct,  he  asked  the  committee  seriously,  whether,  when  710 
real  or  practical  evil  existed,  it  was  prudent  or  w ise  to  demo- 
lish a fabric  as  venerable  and  as  time-honoured  as  our  Consti- 
tution, solely  for  the  purpose  of  attempting  to  rear  another, 
whose  symmetry  or  proportions  might  better  please  the  eye  ? 
Whether  it  were  proper  to  burn  that  noble  “ Magna  Charta” 
of  rights,  which  our  ancestors  have  left  us,  because  our  self- 
complacency  induces  us  to  believe,  that  we  could  write  another 
which  might  read  more  trippingly  on  the  tongue,  or  look  better 
upon  paper  ? Whether,  in  a nation  comprising  nearly  a mil- 
lion of  citizens,  and  many  millions  of  wealth,  because  a mere 
fraction  of  either  may  not  be  fully  represented,  the  very  bonds 
of  society  should  be  dissolved  ? the  government  itself  should 


29 


be  resolved  into  its  original  elements  ? and  the  Constitution, 
the  Law  and  the  Gospel,  sacrificed  on  the  altar  of  political 
expei-iinent.  Yet  all  this  is  demanded  ; and  that,  too,  with 
no  security  as  to  what  will  be  the  event  of  the  convulsion  : 
with  an  utter  uncertainty  as  to  what  may  be  the  nature  of  the 
“ shapeless  monster,”  spi'inging  out  of  this  chaotic  confusion. 
With  a possibility,  nay,  I may  say,  a strong  probability  that 
our  situation  will  be  deterioi*ated  by  the  experiment.  For  I 
fear,  that  at  least  our  wisdom  and  our  patriotism  would  be 
found  unequal  to  the  task  of  presci-ving  equal  rights  and  na- 
tional liberty,  by  throwing  around  them  barriers  as  impreg- 
nable as  those  which  our  ancestors  have  erected.  But  to  re- 
turn to  the  gentleman’s  data.  He  denied  that  they  were  en- 
tirely correct.  With  the  greatest  respect  for  the  gentleman 
from  Rockingham,  he  must  be  permitted  to  observe,  that 
though  he  had  scrupulously  told  us  the  truth,  he  had  cau- 
tiously abstained  from  disclosing  to  us  the  wlmle  truth.  It 
will  be  remarked,  that  up  to  this  period  of  the  debate,  no 
mention  has  been  made,  by  that  gesitleman  or  any  other,  of 
the  vast  sums  of  revenue  which  are  poured  into  the  lap  of  the 
general  government,  by  the  eastern  section  of  tlie  State.  But 
without  a reference  to  these,  we  could  never  arrive  at  a cor- 
rect conclusion  : for  without  them  the  premises  were  incom- 
plete. He  would  submit  a few  remarks  to  the  committee  on 
this  subject,  with  a view  of  elucidating  the  question.  He  be- 
lieved he  might  safely  assert,  that  the  individual  towns  of 
!Newbern,  Wilmington,  Washington  and  Edenton,  paid  into 
the  national  coffers  more  money  than  was  derived  from  all 
the  wealthy  and  widely  extended  regions  of  the  West.  He 
had  no  documents  to  which  he  could  refer,  for  the  establish- 
ment of  this  or  any  other  facts  of  the  same  nature.  He  had 
taken  no  pains  to  j)rocure  them,  for  he  did  not  expect  to  have 
shared  in  the  debate.  But  he  believed  he  hazarded  nothitjg 
in  asserting,  that  the  excess  which  the  Eastern  counties  paid 
into  the  general  treasury,  over  and  above  what  the  Western 
counties  paid  into  the  same  fund,  equalled,  if  it  did  not  ex- 
ceed, the  ordinary  revenue  of  the.  State  of  North-Carolina. 
He  insisted  that  the  committee  ought  to  take  this  fact  into 
view,  and  to  give  it  much  weight,  as  bearing  on  the  present 
question.  Our  relative  representation  in  Congress  is  not  af- 
fected by  this  excess  of  taxation  ; and  it  ought  to  be  felt 
somewhere  ; it  ought  to  be  felt  in  this  legislature.  It  is  this 
sum  paid  into  the  treasury,  which  increases  our  navy,  sup- 
ports our  army,  and  enables  the  administration  of  the  union 
to  carry  all  its  functions  into  due  operation  ; for  the  benefit 
both  of  the  West  and  the  East  j for  the  general  good.  Giv- 


30 


ing^  then,  this  circumstanre  its  due  wcig'lit,  takinsj  this  view 
of  the  subject,  wo  perceive,  that  tliou.a;!i  tlicii-  population  ex- 
ceeds ours,  l)y  more  than  one  luindj'ed  thousand,  yet  we  pay 
a double  oi-  triple  (luantum  of  taxation.  And  hence  we  may 
fairly  conclude,  that  on  the  proposed  basis  of  population  and 
taxation  combined,  tbe  present  representation  is  equally  pro- 
portioned between  the  Western  and  Eastern  counties ; at ' 
least  as  equally  so,  as  is  to  be  desired  for  any  j)ractical  pur- 
poses. 

Practical  perfection,  Mr.  Cliairnian,  is  not  to  be  expected 
from  sbort-siiyhtei)  humanity  ; least  of  all,  is  it  to  be  expect- 
ed in  political  combinations.  It  can  exist  no  where  but  in 
the  fanciful  visions  of  political  theorists.  On  any  practical 
system  of  representation,  there  will  always  be  a fraction  of 
population  or  Wealth,  not  as  well  rejiresented  in  some  places 
as  in  others.  But  if  no  ]M*actical  evil  result  therefrom,  or  the 
dispropoi'tion  is  not  enormous,  it  is  unnecessary,  nay  dange- 
rous, to  call  into  action  the  rude  ami  unsteady  hand  of  re- 
form. Both  population  and  wealth,  are  necessarily  very 
fluctuating  in  a country  so  new  as  ours  ; where  such  great 
temptations  are  held  out  to  enterprize  ; where  industry  is 
daily  discovering  new  channels,  into  which  it  can  be  more 
profitably  directed;  and  where  those  local  attachments  exist, 
in  so  slight  a liegrce,  w!iic!i,  in  older  countries,  bind  tlieir 
inhabitants,  though  poor  and  enslaved,  with  indissoluble  ties, 
to  the  liearth-stone  of  their  ancestors.  From  the  operation  of 
one,  or  of  all  these  circiunstanccs  combined,  a section  of  coun- 
try, w Itich  now  boasted  of  its  population  and  wealth,  might, 
the  next  year,  be  drained  of  both  ; and  the  ratio  of  repi-esen- 
tation,  which  one  year  was  precisely  just,  would  the  next 
year  in  theory,  at  least,  be  odious  and  unequal.  From  the 
operation  of  the  same  causes,  it  sometimes  happened,  that  in 
sections  (^f  the  country  where  enterprize  and  industry  had, 
for  a long  time,  languished  and  slumbered  in  inaction,  and 
wealth  and  j)opulation  were  at  a dead  stand ; that  a new  im- 
petus was  given  to  both,  from  the  discovery  of  some  new 
source  of  employment.  He  believed  that  this  was  about  to  be 
the  case  in  the  Eastern  counties;  and  that  it  would  eventuate 
in  equalizing  the  population  of  the  Eastern  and  Western  divi- 
sions of  the  State.  It  is  well  knowm,  tiiat  there  are  immense 
bodies  of  w ilderness  in  the  Eastern  ]>art  of  the  State,  some  of 
which  have  never  been  ti'odden  by'  the  foot  of  civilization. 
They  afford  the  most  fertile  soils  in  the  State,  though  now* 
uncultivated.  He  believed  they  would  not  long  remain  so.  ■ 
The  piercing  eye  of  cupidity,  was  already  attracted  towards 
them  ; and  gloated  on  tlie  “ promised  laud”  with  rapture  and 


Si 


delight.  The  genius  of  enterprise  and  iabor,  wearied  with 
repose,  had  already  aroused  fi-om  inaction — and  was  prepar- 
ing with  i-enewed  vigor,  to  address  liimselfto  the  grateful  la- 
bor. Experiments  had  been  made  ; and  these  lands  had  been 
found  to  render  an  ample  and  abundant  reward  to  the  agri- 
culturalist. Now,  Sir,  when  under  these  auspices,  our  wide- 
ly extended  swamps  and  pocosons  shall  have  been  reclaimed 
by  tlie  hand  of  (mltivation  ; when  our  desarts  shall  smile  ; 
and  our  wilderness  blossom  as  the  rose ; (and  ere  long,  I 
trust  tiicy  will,)  then  Sir,  I believe,  that  the  scale  even  of 
poj)ulation  will  preponderate  in  the  East 

But  we  are  told,  Mr.  Chairman,  (said  Mr.  B.)  that  now 
is  the  accepted  time  to  examine  and  amend  our  rotten  Consti- 
tution— that  in  this  interval  of  peace ; tins  cera  of  good  feel- 
ings, wlien  no  party  excitement  exists,  we  should  address  our- 
selves seriously  to  the  task  of  altering  the  rotten  patch-work 
of  our  ancestors  ; we  are  told  also,  that  we  are  as  wise  and 
as  pati'iotic  ; ])erhaps  wiser  -and  more  patriotic  than  they 
wei'e  ; and  consequently,  pei-fectly  competent  to  perform  that 
necessary,  but  irreverent  duty.  On  tiiis  occasion.  Sir,  (with 
my  friend  from  Newbern,)  I cannot  but  advert  with  pain  to 
the  bold  and  peremptory  language  with  which  the  gentlemen 
from  the  West  denounce  the  Constitution  ; and  I had  almost 
said,  menaced  its  supporters.  We  are  plainly  told,  that  if  we 
do  not  consent  peaceably  to  the  alteration  of  tiic  Constitution, 
they  will  forcibly  alter  it : if  w^e  do  not  vote  for  the  resolu- 
tions on  the  table — they  will  have  a Convention  : they  will 
destroy  the  Constitution.  I have  heard,  (said  Mr.  B.)  this 
language  held  out  of  doors  ; even  there  I heard  it,  with  sur- 
prise. But  he  was  grieved  and  dismayed,  that  in  the  face  of 
the  people  in  this  hall,  such  sentiments  and  such  language, 
should  be  boldly  uttered  and  seriously  defended.  Does  this 
' language  bespeak  that  cool  and  temjierate  spirit,  that  total 
absence  of  party  feeling,  or  that  noble  disinterested- 
ness, which  submits  to  partial  evil  for  the  general  good  ; 
which  w^e  ought  to  expect  in  a Convention  ? Or  did  these 
sentiments  encourage  us  in  believing,  that  in  a Convention  in 
these  days,  we  could  hope  to  assemble  legislators  as  cautious 
and  as  wise ; or  patriots  as  pure  and  as  single-hearted,  as 
were  they,  wiiose  names  are  subscribed  to  oiu*  present  Con- 
stitution ? He  feared  not.  Much  as  he  respected  the  friends 
of  the  Resolutions  on  the  table : much  as  he  respected  his  own 
Eastern  friends,  he  confessed,  he  respected  the  patriots  and 
heroes  of  ’"6  more:  he  had  not  sufficient  self-complacency, 
to  believe  that  we  are  as  wise  or  as  patriotic  as  they  were ; 
far  less  did  he  believe,  that  we  are  wiser  or  more  patriotic. 


32 


Ami,  oil  this  score,  tiie  sentiments,  proclaimed  by  the  gentle- 
men in  opposition,  had  perfected  his  belief — they  had  exalted 
it  to  faith.  lie  feared,  that  tlie  rapid  increase  of  luxury  and 
M'caltli ; the  wide-spread  influence  of  Banks  and  other  cor- 
porations ; the  prevalence  of  a spirit  of  faction  in  some  pla- 
ces, and  of  aristocracy  in  others,  had  tended  to  sap  the  foun- 
dations of  public  spirit  every  where ; and  had  thereby,  in 
some  degree,  enervated  and  corrupted  genuine  republican 
principles. 

Mr.  B.  asserted  that  it  was  unwise  and  dangerous  to  tam- 
per with  old  Institutions,  on  any  occasions  but  those  of  the 
most  emergency ; it  was  most  unwise  to  sacrifice  a positive 
good,  for  the  existence  of  mere  visionary  evils.  Constitutions 
ought  not  to  be  destroyed,  for  trivial  reasons,  or  imaginary 
grievances.  They  were  intended  as  a solemn  record  of  prin- 
ciples ; they  should  be  fixed,  lasting,  durable,  permanent. 
Not  like  municipal  lavvs,  which  being  applicable  to  the 
changeful  transactions  of  ordinary  life,  should  change  as  they 
do;  and  wiiichthe  same  power  that  breathed  them  into  exist- 
ence one  year,  miglit  annihilate  the  next.  They  should  not 
be  placed  in  the  power  of  the  lordlings  of  faction — nor  treat- 
ed as  tlie  toys  or  playthings  of  ambition.  He  repeated  it, 
they  should  not  be  altered  or  destroyed  for  aught,  but  real 
and  serious  grievances.  None  such  existed.  He  called  on  the 
Gentlemen  from  the  West  to  point  them  out  if  there  were 
any.  Though  the  preponderance  of  power  is  in  the  East,  I 
ask  them  if  it  has  ever  been  ungraciously  exercised  ? Can  the 
West  complain  of  any  unbrotiicriy  sentiment  which  we  have 
ever  fostered?  Any  unkind,  illiberal  or  unfraternal  act,  that 
we  have  sanctioned  towards  them  ? The  Gentlemen  from  the 
West  admit  they  cannot.  They  well  know,  that  we  are  always 
ready  to  do  their  talents  and  merit  ample  justice,  by  the  promp- 
titude with  wiiich  we  confer  upon  them  the  offices  of  Govern- 
ment— in  the  improvement  of  roads  and  rivers,  the  public 
purse  has  been  devoted  almost  exclusively  to  the  West ; its 
contents  ha\e  been  cheerfully  distributed  among  them,  with 
the  most  liberal  hand,  and  the  most  lavish  profusion. 

To  conclude,  Mr.  Chairman,  (said  IVH*.  B.)  though  my  rea- 
son were  not  fully  convinced  of  the  utter  impolicy  of  the  re- 
solutions on  the  table ; which  it  most  certainly  is ; the 
strong  feeling  of  respect  and  veneration  with  which  I have 
always  regarded  that  glorious  instrument ; would  induce  me 
to  hesitate  long,  ere,  under  any  circumstances,  I would  as- 
sent to  its  destruction.  When  he  called  to  mind,  tiiat  it  was 
the  mantle,  which  was  thrown  around  the  first  born  of  the 
Revolution,  on  its  natal  day ; that  it  is  the  handy-work  of  the 
])atriots  and  heroes  who  achieved  our  independence — the  rich 


33 


reward  of  their  toils,  or  the  sacred  price  of  their  blood — and 
that  it  has  protected  us  from  our  revolutionary  cradle  to  a 
vigorous  maturity,  he  confessed  that  he  felt  for  it  the  deepest 
veneration.  Wlien  he  recollected,  that  it  had  resisted  the 
encroachments  of  power,  and  the  turbulence  of  faction  ; that 
it  shielded  us  through  the  storms  and  troubles  of  a second 
glorious  and  bloody  war,  and  still  afforded  its  ample  protec- 
tion, whilst  peace,  and  plenty,  and  happiness,  smiled  on  all 
our  borders,  the  strongest  confidence  in  its  excellence,  was 
added  to  his  veneration.  Feeling  these  sentiments,  and  feel- 
ing them  deeply,  he  trusted  that  he  should  never  stretch  out 
an  unhallowed  hand  to  assist  in  its  destruction. 

Mr.  Leak — Never  did  I arise  on  an  occasion  in  which  I 
felt  a greater  distrust  of  my  own  abilities,  than  the  present  ; 
a feeling  naturally  arising  in  my  breast  when  I consider  tho 
vast  importance  of  the  question  that  is  agitated  ; when  I con- 
sider the  importance  of  that  principle,  that  is  about  to  be  in- 
volved in  the  final  determinati^xn  of  the  resolutions  on  your 
table ; that  principle  that  is  about  to  receive  a legislative 
sanction  so  completely  subversive  of  legislative  rights. 

Yet  I must  confess  at  the  same  time,  notwithstanding  this 
self  distrust,  notwithstanding  my  own  inability  to  wipe  away 
the  local  and  sectional  feeling  already  roused  by  the  discus- 
sion of  this  question,  and  which  when  agitated,  seems  to  res- 
pond with  reanimated  vigor  from  every  bosom.  I say  I con- 
fess I was  never  propelled  forward  by  a stronger  stimulus. 

I never  felt  a more  irresistible  inducement  on  entering  the  ' 
wide  field  of  debate.  Whether  it  proceeds  from  ignoi-anoe,  or 
that  I am  animated  by  the  justness  of  the  cause,  I shall  not 
here  determine.  But  here  let  me  declare,  that  if  I thought 
our  essential  welfare  and  privileges  as  a free  and  enlightened 
people  demanded  it  not ; if  I thought  the  principle  of  a repre- 
sentative and  popular  government,  corresponded  with  the  si- 
tuation in  which  the  freemen  of  North-Carolina  are  placed  ; 
if  I thought  I could  in  any  way  discharge  the  duty  which  I 
owe,  the  obligation  which  I conceive  myself  to  be  under  to 
the  constituents  whom  I have  the  honor  to  represent,  without 
participating  in  the  unpleasant  discussion  of  a question  which 
has  already  given  rise  to  a sectional  and  local  feeling,  I po- 
sitively affirm  it  would  be  my  choice. 

In  our  taking  a comprehensive  view  of  the  Constitution 
under  which  we  live,  we  need  not  have  pointed  out  the  defects 
existing  in  that  Constitution.  We  need  not  be  told,  as  we 
repeatedly  have  been  this  day,  that  some  of  its  provisions 
are  deficient.  We  need  not  be  told  that  equal  representa- 

5 


34 


tion,  Ibmuled  upon  the  principle  of  free  white  population,  or 
upon  tlie  mixed  |)i-inriple  of  population  and  wealtl),  can  ever 
be  attained  under  its  fostering  care.  The  most  superficial 
glance  will  corroborate  tlie  assertion,  and  prove  to  tlie  world, 
that  it  is  not  imaginary,  that  it  is  not  the  wild  and  capricious 
whim  of  fancy,  but  that  it  is  the  steady  and  un-  rring  hand  of 
wisdom  that  tells  us  to  suffer  not  tlie  most  minute  infringe- 
ment of  our  rights.  “ For  tlic  leading  defect  in  all  popular 
or  republican  governments,  is  the  want  of  a proper  jealousy 
of  tlie  minutest  infringements  of  popular  rights.” 

Let  facts  speak  for  themselves,  and  when  these  facts  are 
adduced,  let  that  contracted  and  illiberal  spirit  of  sectional 
feeling  which  characterizes  us  this  day,  be  thrown  aside,  and 
let  impartial  feelings  usurp  the  beam,  and  unprejudiced  rea- 
son determine  facts.  Let  arguments  be  governed  by  tlu'lr 
weight,  hy  the  conviction  they  carry  with  them,  and  by  that 
criterion  let  them  j-ise  or  fall. 

When  undei"  the  auspices  and  protection  of  Divine  Provi- 
dence, these  former  colonies ‘'ifeecame  free  and  independent 
States;  when  our  forefathers  resolved  to  shake  off  tlie  shackles 
of  ministerial  ojipi-ession,  or  sacrifice  their  lives  on  the  altar 
of  liberty  ; when  those  chains  of  oppression  that  held  us  down, 
those  bonds  of  political  association,  were  burst  asunder,  it 
became  necessary  to  establish  some  laws  to  prevent  anarchy 
and  confusion,  to  p»-event  unrestrained  liberty  from  degene- 
rating into  licentiousness,  for  licentiousness  is  nothing  but  an 
ebullition,  an  excrescence  of  liberty  ; it  is  a speck  in  the  poli- 
tical body,  which  if  suffered  to  rage  uncontrolled,  spreads  its 
contagious  influence,  and,  like  “ Aaron’s  serpent,  swallows 
up  the  rest.”  It  was  then  the  people  claimed  to  themselves 
the  riglit  of  establishing  a free  and  independent  government; 
a right  inherent  in  themselves,  and  “ formidable  to  tyrants 
only.”  At  this  time  we  had  just  emancipated  from  the  colo- 
nial shackles  of  England,  we  had  just  emerged  from  that  po- 
litical thraldom  which  had  like  to  have  enveloped  us  in  the 
besom  of  destruction.  It  was  at  such  a time  the  Constitution 
under  v\hich  we  live  was  framed  ; it  was  in  times  of  difficulty 
when  it  was  impossible  for  that  reflection  and  mature  delibe- 
ration to  be  exercised,  which  tlie  imjiortance  of  the  subject 
demanded  ; for  at  no  time  is  it  an  easy  task  to  frame  a code 
of  laws  which  can  buffet  the  billows  of  popular  rumor  and 
discontent ; much  less  such  an  one  as  in  its  nature  has  to 
accommodate  the  various  changes  through  which  we  have 
passed.  The  more  simple  idea  of  order  and  equity  were  at 
that  time  sufficient  to  guide  those  venerable  heroes  in  the 
revolution,  in  the  formation  of  a code  of  laws  calculated  for 
the  internal  adiniilistration  of  justice.  But  equality  of  repre- 


35 


sentation,  the  very  basis  on  whicii  all  republican  governments 
are  founded : equality  of  representation,  that  very  principle 
(which  does  not  even  appear  to  be  well  understood  at  this 
enlightened  day,  or  if  understood,  is  treated  with  indifference) 
is  in  its  nature  more  intricate  and  perplexed,  and  requires 
long  experience,  together  with  a conversant  knowledge  of 
history,  to  be  well  understood  by  any  person. 

It  has  been  stated  to  us  by  the  gentleman  from  Salisbury, 
(Mr.  Fisher)  that  serious  defects  do  exist  in  the  constitution, 
which  cry  aloud  for  redress,  and  that  the  only  method  by 
which  redress  can  be  obtained,  is  by  a Convention.  This  is 
certainly  true,  fur  if  it  is  defective,  it  can  be  remedied  only 
by  the  delegated  powers  of  the  people.  The  sovereignty  is 
in  the  people,  consequently  the  people  have  an  indefeasible, 
an  unalienable  and  an  incontestible  right  to  modify,  change 
or  annul  any  form  of  government  w hich  does  not  go  to  secure 
the  liberties  of  the  governed.  If  this  position,  then,  can  be 
true,  and  that  it  is  there  is  »io  gentleman  on  this  floor  w ill 
deny,  it  is  equally  true,  that  every  thing  that  comes  in  con- 
tact with  that  power,  that  every  thing  that  prevents  the  people 
from  having  their  due  weight  in  legislative  proceedings,  is  a 
grievance  contrary  to  the  spirit  of  a Republican  government, 
and  which  the  people  certainly  have  a right  to  consult  toge- 
ther for  the  common  good  and  redi-ess. 

There  arc  in  this  State,  62  counties,  containing  a'  white 
population,  according  to  the  last  census,  of  4 19,200.  Thirty- 
live  of  these  counties,  (wiiich  we  will  denominate  Eastern) 
contain  a white  population  of  164,976 ; and  the  remaining 
twenty-seven,  which  we  will  call  Western,  contain  a white 
population  of  254,224.  This  division  will  be  observ  able  on  a 
Map,  by  having  drawn  a North  and  South  line  from  Warren 
county  to  the  South-Carolina  line,  which  will  intersect  War- 
ren. Wake,  &c. 

If  the  aggregate  amount  of  wdiite  population,  viz  ; 419,200 
be  divided  by  186,  the  number  of  representatives  elected  by 
the  62  counties,  excluding  the  borough  towns,  it  will  give 
2253,  as  the  number  each  man  ought  to  represent,  and  the 
27  counties,  which  now  have  81  representatives,  by  this  mode 
of  calculating  ought  to  have  112,  .and  the  35  counties  which 
now  have  105,  ought  to  have  only  74. 

But  as  we  .stand  at  present,  you  will  find,  if  you  will  take 
the  aggregate  amount  of  the  Eastern  white  population,  and 
divide  it  by  the  number  of  representatives  they  now  have ; 
and  take  tlie  aggregate  amount  of  the  Western  wiiite  popula- 
tion, and  divide  it  by  the  number  of  representatives  we  now 
have,  you  will  find,  I say,  that  every  1571  souls  in  the  35 
counties  before  alluded  to,  have  as  great  a share  in  enacting 


36 


laws,  aiitl  have  the  same  weight  in  our  legislative  body,  aa* 
every  3139  in  the  remaining  27  have.  How  to  reconcile  this 
with  my  notions  of  a republican  government,  I confess  I am 
somewliat  at  a loss  to  determine,  if  the  white  population  is 
tahen  as  the  correct  principle  on  which  to  build  a representa- 
tive govej  iunent,  and  it  certainly  should,  in  most  cases,  be 
the  very  pivot  on  which  they  turn.  The  number  of  represen- 
tatives tliat  each  county  would  be  entitled  to,  upon  the  footing 
of  equal  representation,  would  be  as  follows:' 


Ansvn 

3 

Caswell 

3 

Lincoln 

6 

Robeson 

2 

\shc 

1 

Chotvan 

1 

Lenoir 

1 

Richmond 

2 

Beaufort 

2 

Duplin 

2 

Moore 

2 

Randolph 

4 

Beitie 

2 

Edgecomb 

3 

Montg'omery 

3 

Rutherford 

5 

Buncombe 

4 

Franklin 

2 

Martin 

1 

Rockingham 

3 

Burke 

5 

Guilford 

5 

Mecklenburg 

5 

Rowan 

9 

Brunswick 

1 

Gates 

1 

Nash 

2 

Stokes 

5 

Bladen 

1 

Greene 

1 

Northampton 

2 

Sampson 

2 

CabaiTus 

2 

Granville 

3 

N.  Hanovel^ 

2 

Surry 

4 

Columbus 

1 

Haywood 

1 

Onslow 

1 

Tjurell 

1 

Cun'ituck 

2 

Hertford 

1 

Orang-e 

7 

Warren 

2 

Craven 

2 

Hyde 

1 

Person 

2 

Washington 

1 

Camden 

1 

Haliiax 

2 

Pasquotank* 

2 

Wake 

5 

Carteret 

1 

Iredell 

4 

Perquimons 

2 

Wilkes 

3 

Chatham 

3 

Johnston 

2 

Pitt 

2 

Wayne 

2 

Cumbe;  and, 

4 

Jones 

1 

By  this  calculation,  we  have  returned  162  members,  omit- 
ting fractional  parts,  which  operates  as  much  against  the 
large  counties  as  the  small.  Which  shews  us  the  number 
each  county  would  be  entitled  to  individually,  and  the  27 
counties  collectively,  would  have  100,  and  the  35  would  have 
62.  But,  as  we  stand  at  present,  the  Eastern  counties,  with 
a white  population  of  164,976,  have  a greater  share  in  enact- 
ing laws,  than  the  Western  counties  have  with  254,224.  If 
this,  then,  is  consistent  with  the  genius  of  republicanism,  I 
confess  it  is  a political  phenomenon  hitherto  unknown  to  me, 
and  if  it  is,  1 sincerely  hope  that  I may  never  belong  to  that 
elan.  But  it  is  stated  by  gentlemen  of  the  opposition,  that 
representation  ought  to  be  apportioned  upon  the  mixed  prin- 
ciple of  po])ulation  and  wealth.  In  answer  to  this  argument, 
I say,  already  have  we  the  wealth  of  the  State  sulliciently 
represented  in  the  House  of  Senate  ; and,  indeed,  it  appears 
to  me,  that  this  is  another  aristocratic  feature  which  lugged 
itself  into  our  Constitution.  In  the  7th  section  of  the  Consti- 
tution it  is  expressly  declared,  that  no  person  shall  be  entitled 
to  vote  for  a member  of  the  Senate,  unless  he  is  possessed  at 
the  same  time,  of  50  acres  of  land. 

But  it  is  also  stated  tiiat  in  the  representation  for  Congress, 
the  black  population  is  taken  into  consideration.  This 
is  certainly  true ; but  I will  ask  the  gentlemen  that  advance 
tdiis,  whether  it  was  done  from  motives  of  equity,  or  motives 


37 


of  policy  ? whether  it  w'as  done  from  a conscientious  belief 
that  they  were  entitled  to  representation,  or  from  a know- 
led.^e  that  tlie  Southern  States  would  not  enter  into  a com- 
pact, would  not  enter  into  a political  union,  without  some 
guarantee  of  this  species  of  property  ? If,  then,  this  is  quoted 
as  a precedent  upholding  the  principle  of  mixed  representa- 
tion, I answer  that  that  precedent  had  its  origin  in  necessity  ; 
that  it  was  founded,  not  upon  political  right,  but  rather  poli- 
tical ex])ediency  ; that  had  we  not  had  that  provision  ia 
our  Constitution,  that  that  species  of  property,  then  held  as 
valuable,  and  in  w'hich  our  wealth  mostly  consisted,  would 
ere  this  have  been  loaded  with  excise  upon  excise,  to  such  a 
degree  as  would  have  rendered  them  a burthen  on  our  shoul- 
ders. In  this  light  do  I view  that  clause,  as  a sine  qua  non 
condition,  as  a kind  of  compromise  between  the  Northern  and 
Southern  States. 

I do  not  wish  here  to  be  understood  as  disapproving  of  that 
priiiciple  in  the  federal  government,  for  the  situation  of  the 
times  rendered  it  indispensable — but  I do  not  wish  it  quoted 
as  a principle  upon  wliich  we  are  to  build  our  political  tenets 
of  right  or  wrong,  unless  it  undergoes  this  explanation.  It  is 
rather  an  appeal  to  our  interest  than  to  our  judgment;  it  is 
an  indirect  attack  upon  that  part  of  our  political  rampart 
which  of  all  others  is  most  vulnerable,  viz.  our  avarice.. 

But  for  the  res})ect  I have  for  the  opinion  I entertain  of  the 
gentlemen  of  the  opposition,  w hich  compels  me  to  bow  with 
implicit  confidence  to  their  superior  talents,  w'e  will  see  how' 
that  affects  the  matter  under  discu.ssion.  We  will  see  whe- 
ther in  point  of  federal  numbers,  or  any  other  calculation,  if 
the  scale  does  not  preponderate  to  the  West. 

The  federal  population  of  this  State  is  551,007,  which,  if 
we  divide  by  the  same  number  of  representative.s,  186  will 
give  2962,  which,  if  we  then  divide  into  the  federal  popula- 
tion of  each  county,  will  give  the  following  result : 


Anson 

3 

CabaiTus 

2 

Tyrrel 

1 

Wilkes 

O 

Ashe 

1 

Caswell 

3 

W'^ayne 

2 

Wake 

o 

Buncombe 

3 

Duplin 

2 

Hertford 

2 

Mecklenburg 

4 

Burke 

4 

Edgecomb 

3 

Haywood 

1 

Martin 

1 

Beaufort 

2 

Franklin 

2 

Iredell 

3 

Moore 

2 

Bladen 

2 

Guilford 

4 

Jones 

1 

Montgomery 

2 

Berde 

2 

Granville 

4 

Johnston 

2 

Northampton 

3 

Brunswick 

1 

Gates 

1 

Lenoir 

1 

Nash 

2 

Camden 

1 

Greene 

1 

Lincoln 

5 

Robeson 

2 

Cumberland 

3 

Hyde 

1 

Person 

2 

Rowan 

i 

Currituck 

2 

Halifax 

4 

Perquimons 

2 

Surry 

rv 

o 

Carteret 

1 

New-Hanover 

2 

Rutherford 

4 

Stokes 

4 

Columbus 

1 

Onslow 

1 

Rockingham 

3 

Sampson 

2 

Chatham 

3 

Orange 

7 

Richmond 

2 

Washington 

1 

Chowan 

1 

Fitt 

2 

Randolph. 

3 

Warren 

L 

Craven 

3 

Pasquotank 

2j 

38 


Tlio  above  table  retinais  151  members,  and  slicws  that  th« 
twenty-seven  westci'ii  counties  wliich  now  liave  81.  are  en- 
title<l  to  88,  and  the  thirty-five  eastern  counties  which  have 
105,  ou.u,'!it  to  liave  only  63.  In  this,  as  in  the  other  table, 
fractional  jiarts  are  omitted. 

Haviiii;,-  now  sufficiently  proven  the  inequality  of  represen- 
tation, not  only  on  the  basis  of  white  population,  but  on  the 
princijile  of  population  and  wealth;  1 shall  next  proceed  to 
touch  at  a few  of  those  points  in  our  Constitution,  w hich,  in 
my  opinion  need  amendment.  This  I am  under  the  necessity 
of  doina;,  having  been  already  anticipated  in  some  of  the  re- 
marks, that  1 w ished  to  suggest  to  tiiis  committee,^  on  this 
occasion,  and  which  it  is  w ith  pleasure  1 have  seen,  have  been 
placed  in  a more  advantageous  position,  than  1 could  have 
done  myself. 

It  has  been  stated  by  the  gentleman  fi*oin  Newbern,  as  a 
proof  of  the  excellency  of  the  Constitution,  under  w hich  we 
live,  that  exiiericnce  has  tested  its  utility — that  it  has  pro- 
tected us  for  ncai'  half  a century,  from  convulsions  without, 
5ind  intestine  divisions  within — that  under  its  fostering  hand, 
iKive  w e arisen  to  almost  the  pinnacle  of  fame.  This  is  part- 
ly true,  but,  still  it  does  not  prove  that  the.  people  of  North- 
Carolina  do  not  labor  under  any  inequality  in  their  represen- 
tation ; it  does  not  prove  tliat  2 and  2 are  not  4.  All  this 
might  possibly  have  been  attained  under  a government  more 
aristocratic  than  our  own,  and  experience  is  about  this  day 
to  teach  us  the  cause  of  its  duiation  ; it  is  about  to  shew 
us,  that  mankind  are  ever  more  disposed  to  endure  evils 
whilst  evils  arc  tolerable,  than  to  resort  to  new  and  untried 
projects. 

The  Constitution,  in  the  14th  section,  declares,  that  the 
Senate  and  House  of  Commons  sliail  have  power  to  ajipoint 
the  general  and  field  officers  of  the  militia.  Of  the  improprie- 
ty, of  tiiis  section,  1 trust  every  gentleman  in  this  House  will 
concur  with  me. 

Whci'.ever  any  power  is  taken  out  of  the  hands  of  the  peo- 
ple ami  vested  in  any  other  tribunal,  it  is  done  upon  the  prin- 
cij)!c  that  the  exeirise  of  that  power  would  be  abused  by  the 
body  from  whence  it  is  take)!. 

Let  us  see  how  far  this,  then,  accords  with  the  office  i)i 
point.  Can  any  gentleman  on  this  flooi*  pretend  to  doubt,  for 
a moment,  that  the  peo])le  of  North-Carolina  are  not  better 
cai'adde  of  choosi)ig  their  militia  officers,  than  the  legislative 
body  is  ? Can  it  be  coiijecturcd,  that  the  difterent  divisions 
and  brigades  of  the  militia,  arc  not  l•easonab!y  supposed  to  bo 
belti'r  capable  of  judging  of  the  (lualitications  of  the  opposing 


39 


candidates,  tlian  this  Lei^islature  is  ? Besides,  it  is  one  of 
the  principles  of  a popular  .^oveiMiinent,  where  the  power  is 
vested  in  the  people,  and  where  the  people  claim  to  them- 
seltes  the  privilege  of  exercising  that  power — ^tjiat  merit — 
that  qualification — that  private  respectabilit}’  should  he  the 
only  passports  to  honor  and  preferment.  hicli,  then,  are 
most  liable  to  disregard  these  requisitions,  the  legislative  body 
or  the  people.  Let  a man  but  strut  the  soldier,  or  ape  the 
hero,  a few  days,  and  any  ()ffice  which  this  body  can  bestowq 
will  be  tlirown  u}>on  him.  It  is  not  that  we  make  a wanton 
abuse  of  our  authority,  but  it  is  that  we  have  not  the  oppor- 
tunity of  judging.  If  you  want  a stronger  proof  of  this  abuse, 
turn  your  eyes  to  the  melancholy,  to  the  degrading  state  of 
your  militia.  See  if  you  cannot  recognise  among  its  officers, 
some  men  witijout  one  ray  of  military  science,  without  one 
claim  to  private  respectability. 

Then  belbre  you  can  witlihold  from  the  people  the  right  of 
electing  their  own  militia  officers,  you  must  give  some  addi- 
tional proof  of  the  benefits  resulting  from  the  present  mode  of 
election. 

There  are  cases  in  which  certain  powers  would  be  best  to 
be  lodged  in  the  breast  of  this  legislative  body.  Such,  for 
example,  as  the  Judiciary  appointments.  And  this  is  for  the 
best  of  reasons,  for  the  people  collectively  are  not  presumed 
judges  of  their  qualifications.  But  the  question  before  us  is 
one  in  which  they  are  the  only  judges,  where  the  different 
merit  of  the  candidates  is  the  subject  of  every  day’s  discus- 
sion. If  gentlemen  doubt  the  proj)riety  of  this  mode  of  elec- 
tion, I would  refer  them  to  South-Carolina  for  an  example, 
to  that  state  fi-om  which  we  may  draw  many  useful  lessons. 
There  the  people  are  trusted  to  elect  their  own  ofiicers,  and 
they  never  yet  have  abused  that  trust.  To  such  a pride  is 
military  discipline  carried  in  that  State,  that  men  of  the  great- 
est wealth  and  highest  respectability  seek  even  subaltern 
commands. 

The  next  question  to  which  I would  call  the  attention  of 
this  committee  is  the  appointment  of  Judges.  The  13th  arti- 
cle of  the  Constitution  declares,  that  the  General  Assembly, 
by  joint  ballot  of  both  Houses,  shall  appoint  Judges  of  the 
Supreme  Courts  of  Law  and  Equity.  My  objection  to  tliLs 
section  is  not  the  mode  of  appointment,  for  I have  before  said 
that  is  and  ought  to  be  vested  in  this  legislative  body.  But 
it  is  the  difficulty  of  removing  them  from  office  in  case  of  ina- 
bility or  any  other  sufficient  cause.  I confess  that  I here 
recommend  the  innovation  of  an  important  principle ; and  I 
wish  that  my  experience  enabled  me  to  speak  with  greater 


40 


certainty.  But  when  we  want  expei’ience  we  liave  to  apply 
to  precedent;  we  look  to  see; if  others  have  ever  realized  tlie 
evils  which  we  sti’ongly  anticipate.  In  looking  over  the  Con- 
stitutions of  tlie  different  States,  we  find  that  Vermont  has  not 
only  gone  so  far  as  to  declare  that  no  Judge  should  retain  his 
office  after  having  attained  the  age  of  70  years,  but  she  has 
declared  that  no  Sheriff  should ; considering  that  some  limit- 
ed time  should  be  placed,  at  which  it  is  reasonable  enough 
to  su[!pose  that  they  are  incapable  of  discharging  the  duties 
of  the  office.  Kentucky  can  tell  you  in  the  3d  section  of  the 
4th  article  of  her  Constitution,  that  in  her  State  the  Judges 
hold  their  olficcs,  as  in  ours,  during  good  behavior  ; but  that 
they,  for  any  reasonable  cause  which  shall  not  be  sufficient 
ground  of  impeachment,  shall  be  removed  from  their  offices 
by  the  Governor,  upon  the  address  of  two-thirds  of  both  hou- 
ses. And  Kentucky  can  also  tell  you  that  it  affects  not  their 
independence. 

On  former  occasions,  the  election  of  Chief  Magistrate  has 
been  urged,  and  I can  see  no  impropriety  in  that  being  left  to 
the  people.  For  a free  and  enlightened  people  to  assemble 
together  and  deliberately  choose  fi  om  among  their  citizens 
some  one  to  fill  the  executive  chair  is  at  all  times  a crisis  of 
re|)ub!icanism  truly  enviable. 

The  President  of  the  United  States  is  elected  by  the  people, 
and  by  those  very  men  whom  you  refuse  the  right  of  electing 
their  own  Governor.  And  if  I mistake  not,  every  State  in 
the  United  States,  with  the  exception  of  five  or  six,  elect  their 
own  Governors.  And  are  we  so  basely  ignorant  that  w’^e 
cannot  be  allowed  this  privilege  ? I trust  not.  It  is  true  it 
may  be  said,  that  a tone  has  been  given  to  that  election,  that 
renders  it  little  mol'e  than  nominal ; but  let  it  be  recollected, 
that  the  fountain  may  be  pure,  although  the  stream  may  have 
been  polluted,  and  no  matter  from  what  source  the  pollution 
comes,  whether  it  fulminates  from  the  dictatorial  nod  of  a 
caucus,  or  reveiberates  from  the  still  more  dangerous  spirit 
of  party,  it  ought  not  to  destroy  the  correctness  of  the  princi- 
ple which  has  been  bequeathed  to  us  by  our  ancestors. 

If  none  of  these  reasons  have  any  influence  with  the  gentle- 
men of  this  House  ; if  a complete  demonstration  of  the  ine- 
<juality  of  representation  is  treated  by  them  with  a sneer  of 
indifference;  if  you  are  predetermined  to  close  every  avenue 
to  your  understanding,  is  no  weight  due  to  the  opinion  of  a 
respectable  part  of  your  citizens  ? Do  they  come  forward 
with  an  imaginary  evil,  saying  such  and  such  exist,  without 
being  able  to  prove  it.  No;  no  such  thing.  The  very  ground 
on  which  they  have  taken  an  immoveable  stand,  is  inequality 


41 


( 

orropresentation ; and  we  call  upon  you  to  prove  to  the  con- 
trary. Where,  then,  is  the  impropriety  of  recommending  it 
to  the  people  ? Are  they  less  enlightened,  or  less  patriotic 
than  those  that  framed  the  Constitution  ? No,  I trust  that 
the  same  spirit  which  animated  that  immortal  Hero  in  the 
revolution,  whose  portrait  graces  our  Hall,  is  warmly  burn- 
ing in  the  bosoms  of  his  sons. 

Mr.  J.  D.  JoifEs  could  but  admire  the  zeal  and  perseve- 
rance of  the  gentlemen  who  advocated  the  resolutions  on  the 
table,  in  so  often  obtruding  them  on  the  notice  of  the  Legisla- 
ture,  after  their  having  been  so  repeatedly  rejected  ; it  is  a 
zeal  worthy  of  a better  cause.  Did  the  same  spirit  manifest 
itself  for  compensating  public  officers,  and  promoting  works 
of  general  public  utility,  North-Carolina  might  vie  with  the 
proudest  of  her  sister  States  ; we  would  not  so  long  have  had 
our  feelings  outraged  by  seeing  the  price  of  blood  resorted  to 
for  paying  the  prosecuting  officers  of  the  State  ; and  a petty 
tax  on  auctions  made  a revenue  for  compensating  one  class  of 
Judges,  while  the  other,  literally  the  hack-horses  of  the  pub- 
lic, is  without  any  adequate  compensation  at  all. 

It  was,  perhaps,  his  misfortune  to  entertain  very  serious 
doubts,  concerning  the  good  policy,  or  the  beneficial  results 
to  be  calculated  on  from  the  passage  of  the  resolutions  on  the 
table.  To  his  mind,  they  were  replete  with  mischief.  To  his 
mind,  they  box'e  within  themselves,  principles  at  war  w’ith  the 
well-being  of  the  community ; that  they  were  calculated  to 
jeopardize  the  best  ixiterests  of  the  country,  the  safety  and 
happiness  of  the  people. 

It  is  an  old,  and  well  approved  maxim  too,  said  Mr.  J.  to 
let  well  enough  alone ; or,  to  borrow  the  language  of  the  ve- 
nerable Jefferson,  just  quoted  by  the  gentleman  from  Rich- 
mond, (Mr.  Leak)  “ it  is  better  to  suffer  even  evils,  while 
evils  are  sufferable,  than  to  right  ourselves  by  abolishing  the 
forms  to  which  w e are  accustomed.”  After  having  progress- 
ed thus  far  safely,  and  he  might  add,  happily,  under  our  ex- 
isting Constitution,  it  really  seemed  to  him  a species  of 
phrenzy,  exceeding  madness,  to  attempt  to  new  model  the 
Constitution  at  this  time.  The  business  of  renovating  a Gov- 
ernment, was  a task  to  which  few  were  competent;  it  should 
be  resorted  to  upon  the  most  pressing  necessity  only  ; it  should 
be  made  tlie  extreme  medicine  of  a State,  the  last  appeal  of 
oppressed  humanity.  But,  Sir,  to  apply  this  harsh  remedy, 
this  strong  dose  of  mercury  sublimate,  on  tiivial  occasions, 
could  not  be  justified  on  any  principles  of  sound  policy. 


Tiic  evils  complained  of  in  the  resolutions,  are  but  of  arjt- 
ideal,  imaginai7  nature  ; they  appeared  to  him  to  have  growft 
out  of  that  restlessness  of  disposition  inherent  in  our  nature^ 
that  fomhiess  for  change  and  innovation  incident  to  t!ie  clia- 
racters  of  some  men.  It  is  Immaii  nature  never  to  he  ac- 
quainted with  its  ow  n happiness  : in  the  absence  of  real 
afflictions,  we  go  in  searcli  of  fancied  ills.  Tiie  Constitution 
and  the  Government  under  wliich  we  live,  are  as  mild  as 
meekness  could  w isli  them  ; and  yet  to  licar  gentlemen  speak 
of  their  grievances,  you  would  really  supj)ose,  that  tliis  was 
not  the  mild  and  i-ational  Government  of  North-Carolina,  hut 
the  meridian  of  Asia  and  of  Asiatic  tyranny. 

What  are  the  mighty  evils  complained  of?  The  most  pro- 
minent among  them  is  tlie  inequality  in  the  representation  of 
the  counties.  We  are  told  tliat  the  great  county  of  Rowan, 
the  Monsieur  Tonson  of  the  Legislature,  magnified  in  impor- 
tance almost  to  the  dominions  of  the  Great  Mogul ; we  are 
told.  Sir,  that  this  mammoth  county  sends  but  three  members 
to  the  Legislature,  while  each  trifling  county  in  the  East 
sends  as  many,  not  adverting  that  they  liave  little  counties 
also  in  tlie  West ; for  it  is  equally  a fact  of  record,  that  they 
have  counties  in  tiiat  section  of  tlie  State,  so  thin  in  popula- 
tion, and  lean  in  revenue,  that  they  do  not  pay  into  the  cof- 
fers of  the  treasury  enough  to  conqiensate  their  members  of 
Assembly. 

Besides,  the  balance  of  population  in  favor  of  the  West  is 
not  so  very  frightful  5 and  when  we  take  into  view  the  com- 
parative wealtli  of  tlie  East,  the  large  amount  of  revenue  paid 
into  the  treasury,  the  inequality  hetween  the  importance  of 
tlie  tw  o sections  of  the  State  is  not  very  great,  and  he  did  not 
think  gentlemen  should  envy  tlie  Eastern  members  the  little 
weight  they  had  in  the  Legislature. 

But  without  insisting  that  wealth  w as  any  basis  of  repre- 
sentation at  all ; even  admitting  all  that  gentlemen  contend 
for ; even  conceding  there  is  the  inequality  conijdained  of, 
still  lie  denied  it  as  a just  ground  for  new-modelling  the  Con- 
stitution. 

Is  there  not,  asked  Mr.  J.  a greater  inequality  in  the  repre- 
sentation to  the  national  Legislature  ? Do  not  the  petty  states 
of  Delaware  and  Rhode-Island  send  as  many  Senators  to 
Congress  as  the  great  States  of  Virginia,  Penn.sylvania,  or 
of  New-York  ? If  the  evil  he  tolerated  in  the  General  Gov- 
ernment, much  more  is  it  to  be  suffered  in  a State  Govern- 
ment. It  is  impossible,  in  the  nature  of  things,  to  apportion 
political  justice  with  matliematioal  ])recision  ; wc  cannot 
weigh  it  out  in  scales ; tliere  must  he  some  preponderance^ 


43 


some  inequality  in  the  surface.  Nature  herself,  the  greal 
mass  of  wisdom,  is  full  of  ii*regularities. 

E\  ery  member  of  this  committee  must  know,  that  the  pow- 
ers to  be  delegated  to  this  body  are  of  a dictatorial  kind,  that 
they  are  above  law  and  above  the  Constitution  ; but  w'e  are 
told  there  is  no  danger  that  they  will  exceed  the  bounds  of 
pj-opiiety.  Sir,  we  have  no  security  foi*  this  ; can  gentle- 
men enter  into  a bond  obligatory  to  the  people,  binding  upon 
the  Convention  ? Will  any  man  dare  to  lay  his  finger  upon  a 
limit,  and  say  to  them,  as  God  said  to  the  waters,  “ Thus  fai‘ 
shall  ye  go  and  no  farther  ?”  No,  Sir  ; once  constitute  them, 
and  they  are  supreme  ; once  organize  them,  and  no  man  daro 
prescribe  them  limits. 

What  is  the  temper,  Mr.  J.  asked,  of  the  present  time  ? 
Will  that  temper  justify  a resort  to  the  measure  ? He  thought 
not.  When  our  Constitution  was  formed,  there  was  no  talk 
of  Eastern  and  of  Western  interest ; our  w ise  forefathers  took 
a comprehensive,  an  impartial  view  of  the  whole  ground,  they 
therefore  formed  a Constitution  to  suit  the  whole  people,  and 
not  a section  of  them.  Not  so  now.  Ill  blood  and  jealousies 
are  stirring  among  us ; every  member  will  carry  into  this 
Convention,  as  into  a common  stock,  his  private  passions  and 
his  ])rivate  j)artialities ; each  section  of  the  State  will  have 
its  local  views  to  compass  ; the  West  will  be  arrayed  against 
the  East,  and  tlie  East  against  the  West,  and  out  of  these 
jai-ring,  discordant  elements,  what  kind  of  a*compound  of  a 
Constitution  was  to  be  protluced,  he  was  unable  to  tell ; but 
feared  the  birth  w ould  be  of  the  monster  kind. 

If,  said  Mr.  J.  the  East  has  the  exercise  of  the  political 
power  of  the  State,  it  must  be  acknowledged  we  use  it  with 
moderation.  HaAe  the  Western  gentlemen  evidenced  the 
same  disposition  ? Would  they  be  equally  moderate  had  they 
the  predominance  ? He  doubted  it.  For,  Sir,  said  he,  even 
in  this  debate,  with  all  their  caution,  unfortunate  expressions 
have  fallen  fi-om  them,  which  sufiBciently  betray  how  little 
they  are  disposed  to  lenity  in  the  exercise  of  power.  Is  it 
not  common  talk,  that  unless  we  surrender  our  opijiions  and 
our  judgments  to  these  mighty  men  of  the  West,  these  sw  ord 
and  buckler  Myrmidons  of  the  Mountains,  that  some  modern 
Tamerlane  or  Atilla  from  among  them,  would  rise  up  and 
overwhelm  the  devoted  land  of  the  East?  That  they  wmuld 
literally.  Sir,  sw'eep  us  from  the  tombs  of  our  fathers  ? Really, 
Mr.  Chainnan,  said  Mr.  J.  menaces  of  this  kind  are  less  cal- 
culated to  make  an  impression  on  the  Eastern  section  of  the 
State,  than  arguments  which  have  more  temjierance  and  mo- 
deration stamped  upon  the  face  of  them.  Menaces  of  this 


44 


kind,  Sir,  are  calculated  to  iri'itatc,  not  to  sooth  ; instead  of 
mifigatint;’,  tliey  increase  contumacy.  It  is  an  old  and  some- 
wliat  musty,  pi  overb  too,  that  “ a child  may  lead  a horse  to 
water,  but  ten  men  cannot  make  him  drink,”  so  it  may  be 
with  us.  Sir ; vve  may  be  persuaded  into  tliis  measure,  we 
cannot  be  coerced  ; we  may  be  led,  not  driven.  A little 
more  tlian  twelve  months  ago,  he  could  not  in  his  heart 
have  believed,  that  there  existed  in  tlie  State  of  North- 
Carolina,  a man  so  utterly  lost  to  its  true  interests — so  utter- 
ly dead  to  all  sense  of  moderation,  as  to  suggest  even  the 
possibility  that  this  question  would  be  staked  upon  so  ruinous 
an  issue.  I say.  Sir,  said  Mr.  J.  I could  not  in  ray  heart 
have  believed  it ; until  about  that  period,  my  eye  caught  a 
paragrajib  extracted  fi'om  a Western  paper,  where  an  anony- 
mous writer  calls  upon  the  people  of  the  West  to  take  up 
arms  against  the  people  of  the  East,  and  to  dragoon  them  in- 
to a compliance  with  their  measures',  if  other  means  will  not 
prevail,  and  invoked  the  spirit  of  ’76  to  aid  them.  He  would 
ask  whether  it  was  not  the  spirit  of  an  incendiary,  who  ap- 
plied a torch  at  midnight  to  his  neighbour’s  dwelling,  of  an 
arch-fiend  of  bell,  who  delights  to  see  brothers  sheathing  their 
sw'ords  in  each  other’s  bowels,  rather  than  of ’76,  which  pro- 
duced such  a publication  ? It  is  profanation.  Sir,  against  the 
purest  spirit  that  ever  was  an  inmate  of  the  bosom  of  man ; it 
is  profaning  the  spirit  which  built  up  the  very  Constitution 
which  we  are  striving  to  pull  to  pieces,  and  to  scatter  to  the 
four  winds  of  Heaven.  Sir,  said  Mr.  J.  the  framers  of  that 
instrument  were  patriots,  friends  to  the  liberties  of  mankind. 
They  were  men  who  had  been  just  smarting  under  the  lash  of 
European  oppression — they  were  men  who  felt  for  their 
posterity,  what  a father  feels  for  the  child  of  his  bosom.  In 
the  genius  and  spirit  of  liberty,  they  formed  that  charter  of 
our  rights  ; they  handed  it  down  to  us  as  a rich  inheritance, 
which  we,  like  prodigals,  would  wish  to  squander,  and  to  sub- 
stitute-— What? — no  man  knows.  The  womb  of  time  can 
alone  disclose  the  birth.  But  to  say  the  most  of  it ; it  is  a 
substitution  of  our  own  shoi't-sighted  views — our  interested  lo- 
cal jvrejudices,  for  the  venerable  and  impartial  work  of  our 
forefathers. 

Mr.  Chairman,  said  Mr.  J.  I am  not  one  of  those  who  en- 
tertain such  a superstitious  veneration  for  the  works  of  anti- 
quity, as  to  deem  them  too  holy  to  be  touched  by  the  hand 
of  man.  Yet,  Sir,  I really  do  entertain  for  them  such  a vene- 
ration, that  unless  I see  vei-y  flagrant  abuses  growing  out  of 
them,  unless  I see  them  entailing  curses  where  benefits  were 
intended,  I am  the  last  man  in  the  world  that  .would  lend  a 
hand  to  their  subversion. 


45 


Feeling,  and  believing  therefore,  as  he  did,  on  this  vnonaen- 
tous  question,  that  the  adoption  of  the  resolutions  was  calcu- 
lated to  jeopardize  our  best  interests  ; that  tlie  evils  com- 
plained of  were  but  of  an  imaginary  nature  ; tliat  the  powers 
to  be  delegated  to  this  Convention  were  of  too  alarming  a na- 
ture to  be  entrusted  to  men,  except  called  for  by  the  most 
pressing  necessity,  he  felt  it  a paramount,  an  imperious  du- 
ty to  give  his  vote  against  the  Resolutions. 

Mr.  Mebane  (the  Speaker)  said,  it  was  his  misfortune, 
whenever  he  rose  to  address  the  house,  to  experience  the 
greatest  difficulty,  frpm  being  seldom  called  upon  to  address 
a public  body  ; and,  on  the  present  occasion,  he  felt  more  than 
ordinary  embarrassment  on  account  of  the  importance  of  the 
question  and  his  great  inability  to  do  justice  to  the  subject 
under  debate.  He  felt  embarrassed  on  another  account.  The 
gentlemen  who  had  preceded  him  in  support  of  the  Resolu- 
tions before  the  committee,  had  taken  up  the  ground  so  com- 
pletely as  to  have  left  little  for  liim  to  say.  They  had  clear- 
ly proved  to  his  view,  that  our  present  Representation  is  un- 
equal, unjust  and  anti-republican. 

t Mr.  M.  said  he  felt  discouraged  on  another  account ; that  he 
was  addressing  gentlemen,  a majority  of  whom  have  their 
reason  blinded  by  what  they  conceive  to  be  their  interest,  who 
feel  power  and  forget  right,  and  wlio  fear  the  approach  of  the 
time  when  the  Sceptre  is  to  depart  from  Judah.  He  of  course 
could  not  expect  any  thing  he  might  be  able  to  say  would  have 
any  influence  upon  them,  although  Jie  would  wish  to  hope  bet- 
ter things,  and  that  Eastern  gentlemen  would  feel  disposed 
to  observe  the  golden  rule  of  “ doing  to  others  as  they  would 
tliat  others  should  do  to  them.”  Tlie  friends  of  the  present 
proposition  had  been  charged  with  bringing  forwai'd  a mea- 
sure calculated  to  produce  anarchy  and  confusion  in  the  coun- 
try. He  could  not  help  thinking,  however,  that  gentlemen 
viewed  the  subject  through  a distorted  medium. 

Mr.  M.  did  not  intend  to  detain  the  committee  many 
minutes,  as  he  would  not  follow  his  friends  in  the  calculations 
which  they  had  laid  before  tbe  committee.  He  would  state  a 
few  circumstances  to  shew,  what  had  already  been  more  fully 
stated,  that  our  Representation  is  unequal,  unjust  and  anti- 
republican. 

Take  into  view,  said  he,  the  whole  population  of  the  State 
and  it  will  be  seen  that  sixteen  or  eighteen  of  the  largest 
counties  have  one-half  of  this  population.  No  matter  in  what 
part  of  the  State  they  are  situated,  the  citizens  of  North-Ca- 
rolina  having  equal  rights.  And  yet  these  Counties  send  no 


46 


more  Representotivcs  to  the  General  Assembly  than  the  same 
number  of  the  the  smallest  Counties  in  the  State.  Is  this  just 
or  equal  ? 

A]^ain,  as  to  the  expences  of  the  Government.  The  com- 
mittee had  been  told,  that  the  Representatives  of  each  Coun- 
ty in  the  General  Assembly,  together  with  the  expences  of 
Judiciary,  &c.  cost  the  State  about  S700  a year.  It  will  be 
found,  on  reference  to  the  Comptroller’s  statement,  that  many 
of  tlie  small  Counties  do  not  pay  near  this  amount  of  taxes 
into  the  Public  Treasury.  Who,  then,  pays  the  residue  for 
them  ? It  is  the  large  Counties  which  pay  it.  Is  this  just 
or  equal  ? 

It  will  be  found,  that  one-half  the  Counties  in  the  State, 
I mean  the  small  Counties,  do  not  contain  one-third  of  the 
whole  population,  while  the  other  half  contain  upwards  of 
two-thirds.  Yet  each  County  has  the  same  Representation 
in  the  Assembly.  Is  it  not  right  tliat  a majority  should  rule  ? 
Yet  in  this  case,  the  minoidty  rules.  One-third  can  govern 
two-thirds.  Rowan  is  equal  in  population  to  six  or  seven  of 
the  small  Counties,  and  Orange  is  not  much  less,  and  they 
pay  taxes  in  proportion. — And  yet  each  of  these  small  Coun- 
ties send  as  many  members  to  this  house  as  Rowan  or  Orange* 
Is  this  fair  or  equal  ? 

It  appeared  to  Mr.  M.  to  be  useless  to  pi’oduce  arguments 
to  prove  things  which  are  so  self-evident  ; and  it  must  be  in- 
terest, or  something  else,  which  prevented  the  subject  from 
being  viewed  in  its  proper  light. 

It  had  been  said,  that  the  present  time  is  improper  for  cal- 
ling a Convention  ; and  alarming  forebodings  had  been  made 
of  the  evils  wdiich  w'ould  probably  gro\v  out  of  such  a mea- 
sure. All  which  he  considered  as  devoid  of  foundation. 

Something  like  a menace  from  tlie  West  had  been  alluded 
to — that  the  Western  people  wa)uld  rush  from  the  mountains 
and  crush  the  people  of  the  East.  Gentlemen  may  have  seen 
in  a newspaper,  some  such  anonymous  piece ; but  whoever 
might  have  widtten  it,  he  was  not  a good  citizen  ; but  far 
from  it.  No,  said  Mr.  M.  however  much  the  people  of  the 
West  desire  a revision  of  the  Constitution,  they  will  never 
resort  to  other  than  fair  and  honorable  means  to  effect  their 
purpose.  You  wall  never  sec  Mountain  Men  in  Arms,  except 
it  be  to  meet  an  Enemy:  If  such  a])pcars,  they  will  alw'ays 
be  ready  to  fly  to  the  defence  of  tlieir  Eastern  brethren. 

Mr.  M.  would  have  been  pleased  that  this  question  could 
have  been  viewed  in  its  proper  light,  w'itliout  reference  to 
either  Eastern  or  Western  interest,  that  every  part  of  the 
State  might  have  obtained  that  just  and  equal  Representation 


?n  the  Government  to  which  they  ii:  c entitled.  He  despaired, 
however,  at  present,  of  succeeding  in  his  wishes. 

Mr.  Hillman  was  mnvilling  to  consume  much  of  tiie  time 
of  tlie  committee,  but  he  owed  it  to  himself  and  his  constitu- 
ents, on  so  important  a subject,  to  assign  some  of  the  mo- 
tives which  would  govern  liis  vote,  and  to  reply  to  some  of 
the  arguments  which  had  been  offered  in  favor  of  the  resolu- 
tions on  the  table. 

The  gentleman  from  Salisbury  had  said,  that  our  present 
Constitution  was  imperfect,  and  tliat  considering  the  inaus- 
picious circumstances  under  which  it  was  framed,  and  the 
unfavorable  period  for  deliberations  of  that  kind,  it  was  a 
wonder  it  was  not  more  so.  ' He  thought  differently.  It  was 
framed  by  patriots  who  had  just  broken  the  yoke  of  despo- 
tism, who  were  pui-e  from  the  revolutionary  struggle  which 
ushered  in  the  independence  of  the  country;  and  who,  there- 
fore, knew  well  how  to  value  the  principles  of  civil  liberty. 
Every  memorial  presented  to  the  Hritisli  Throne  or  Parlia- 
ment, about  that  time,  shewed  how  well  they  were  acquainted 
with  their  political  rights.  How  could  it  have  been  other- 
wise, asked  Mr.  H.  when  the  very  cause  in  which  they  w ere 
engaged,  had  for  its  objects  the  establishineut  of  the  indepen- 
dence of  a people,  the  acknowledgment  of  the  rights  of  a na- 
tion ? A struggle,  which,  if  it  had  proved  unsuccessful, 
would  have  I'cndered  all  who  had  embarked  in  it  rebels^,  and 
exposed  them  to  the  penalties  of  the  law.  Nothing  but  the 
most  perfect  knowledge  of  their  rights,  the  most  thorough  con- 
viction of  the  injuries  they  had  sustained,  could  have  induced 
them  to  throw'  off  the  yoke  and  incur  such  dangers.  Napo- 
leon was  not  more  anxious  to  make  his  army  familiar  with 
military  tactics  and  the  art  of  war,  than  the  people  of  this 
6ounti-y  were,  at  that  time,  to  become  acquainted  witii  the 
principles  of  civil  liberty  and  the  unalienable  rights  of  man. 
One  of  the  most  distinguished  members  of  the  British  Parlia- 
ment, at  that  time,  did  not  hesitate  to  say,  that  thei*e  w^ere  no 
people  in  any  part  of  the  world,  who  understood  their  rights 
as  well  as  the  people  of  America.  There  were,  then,  no  par- 
ties; there  was  no  such  thing  as  sectional  feeling — familiar 
with  the  repeated  and  continued  encroachments  of  power,  and 
having  suffered  much  and  suffered  long  in  the  struggle,  they 
knew  well  how  to  guard  their  riglits  and  protect  the  liberties 
of  the  citizen. 

But  the  gentleman  from  Salisbury  has  intimated,  that  the 
patriots  w'bo  framed  our  constitution  still  felt  an  attachment 
to  the  old  government ; and  to  prove  this  position,  he  havS 


48 


lead  (IS  un  oxli-act  Iroui  the  minutes  of  their  proceeding's  at 
llalilax.  It  will  be  recollected  by  the  coinmittce,  that  the 
contest,  even  at  that  time,  was  somewhat  doubtful.  Consi- 
dering tlie  doubtfulness  of  the  contest,  and  the  many  delicate 
and  tender  ties  which  existed  between  the  people  of  this  and 
the  mother  country,  it  is  not  a matter  of  very  great  surprize 
that  the  jieople  of  this  country  should  have  been  satisfied,  with 
a recognition  of  their  rights  by  Great-Britain,  to  have  remained 
attached  to  that  country.  It  was,  howevei-,  an  attachment  to 
the  ])eople  to  whom  they  were  connected  by  the  ties  of  feeling, 
of  affinity  and  of  blood,  rather  than  any  attachment  for  the 
government,  which  they  felt.  Docs  the  gmitleman  mean  by 
such  an  insinuation  to  raise  a prejudice  against  the  Consti- 
tution ? Where  is  the  feature  in  it  which  will  warrant  such 
a charge  ? Our  bill  of  rights,  to  be  sure,  is  nearly  a copy 
from  the  Declaration  of  Rights  of  Great-Britain — and  where 
is  a better?  But  is  there  any  thing  in  our  government  which 
savours  of  British  attachment  ? Have  we,  as  in  England,  an 
hereditary  executive  and  peerage?  On  the  contrary,  our  Go- 
vernors arc  elected  annually  ; our  Senators  are  chosen  for  the 
same  period  by  freeholders ; and  our  Commonei's  by  every 
man  who  is  subject  to  pay  taxes  ; and  the  sessions  of  our  Le- 
gislatures arc  held  annually.  No  people  could  have  been 
placed  in  more  independent  circumstances  than  were  our  fore- 
fathers at  the  formation  of  the  Constitution.  Having  thrown 
off  the  British  yoke,  they  were  at  full  liberty  to  form  a new 
system  of  government  on  correct  principles.  This  Constitu- 
tion has  another  recommendation.  It  has  the  test  of  forty 
years  experience,  during  which  time,  the  State  has  flou- 
rished and  been  happy  without  altering  it  in  a single  feature. 
How  is  it  with  regard  to  our  laws  ? Is  it  not  the  business  of 
our  session  to  repeal  what  a former  one  has  enacted,  and  for 
the  next  succeeding  one  to  re-enact  what  the  preceding  one 
has  repealed  ? If  so,  wffiat  evidence  have  we  that  our  Conven- 
tion would  not  be  composed  of  materials  similar  to  those  which 
compose  our  General  Assemblies.  I should  tremble  for  the 
State,  if  its  Constitution  were  to  be  new-moulded  by  the  pre- 
sent General  Assembly.  It  would  partake  of  all  the  imper- 
fections of  our  legislation,  and  every  few  years  a Conven- 
tion would  be  necessary  for  the  purpose  of  amending  these 
modern  improvements.  He  would,  therefore,  prefer  not  to 
meddle  with  the  Constitution.  It  might  have  its  imperfec- 
tions, but  he  “ would  rather  bear  the  ills  we  now  endure,  than 
rush  to  others  which  we  know  not  of,” 

The  gentleman  from  Rockingham  (Mr.  Morchead,)  tells 
us  thi'ro  is  a vast  difference  between  the  large  and  small  States 


49 


under  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  and  the  large 
and  small  counties  under  the  Constitution  of  this  State — ^that 
the  same  reason  does  not  apply  to  the  counties  as  to  the 
States,  because  the  latter  are  sovereign,  the  former  are  not. 
Mr.  H.  thought  differently.  Both  wei*e  governed  by  the  same 
motives,  to  wit,  self-preservation  and  self-defence.  Previous 
to  the  Revolution  mider  the  old  colonial  government,  the  re- 
presentation was  according  to  counties.  The  Constitution 
being  a matter  of  mutual  conciliation  and  of  compromise,  the 
smaller  counties  were  as  anxious  to  preserve  their  integrity 
and  their  influence  in  the  State  as  the  smaller  States  were  to 
preserve  their  sovereignty  and  their  weight  among  the  United 
States.  He  thought  the  gentleman  had  furnished  the  answer  to 
his  own  argument,  when  he  told  us  that  the  Legislature  had 
power  to  “ new  mould,  to  lop  off,  and  to  annihilate,  the  coun- 
ties at  pleasure.”  It  was  to  prevent  the  larger  counties,  like 
Aaron’s  rod,  from  swallowing  all  the  smaller  ones,  that  in- 
duced them  to  insist  upon  this  principle  of  representation  ; 
and  he  thought  the  argument  of  the  gentleman  but  illy  calcu- 
lated to  induce  the  smaller  counties  to  give  up  a principle  sa 
important  to  their  safety. 

Mr.  H.  admitted  that  there  was  some  inequality  in  the  re?- 
presentation  of  the  people  of  this  State ; but  he  denied  that 
this  inequality  was  either  unjust  or  anti-republican.  The 
justice  of  the  principle  depended  on  the  nature  of  the  compact. 
In  2i  govenvment  of  compromise,  there  could  surely  be  no  injus- 
tice in  each  county  having  the  weight  which  it  had  been  agreed 
it  should  exercise  in  the  legislative  councils.  As  it  regarded 
the  term  republican,  it  was  a kind  of  relative  expression.  It 
did  not  follow  of  course,  tliat  because  these  was  not  an  exact 
equality  of  representation  that  therefore  the  Constitution  was 
anti-republican.  Will  any  man  say,  asked  Mr.  H.  that  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States  is  unjust  or  anti-republican? 
He  presumed  not ; and  yet  the  inequality  under  our  Consti- 
tution is  not  greater  than  it  is  under  the  Constitution  of  the 
United  States.  The  weight  which  is  given  to  the  smaller 
counties  is  not  greater  in  proportion  than  the  weight  which, 
is  given  to  the  smaller  states. 

The  gentleman  from  Rockingham  has  laid  before  the  com- 
mittee, a calculation  of  the  white  population  of  the  Western 
and  Eastern  counties,  and  also  of  the  federal  numbers  ; ac- 
cording to  which,  he  gave  a majority  to  the  West.  Gientle- 
men  had  also  made  calculations  to  shew  that  the  West  paid 
more  taxes  than  tlie  East.  Their  statements  were  calculated 
to  mislead.  It  would  be  found,  upon  examination,  that  gen- 
tlemen had  taken  Granville  and  Bladen  into  their  calculation 


50 


Ibi*  tlie  West,  and  had  left  oat  Wake.  Heretofore,  Gran- 
ville, Wake  and  Bladen,  had  been  considered  as  central  coun- 
ties, and  therefore  left  out  of  the  calculation  of  Eastern  and 
Western  streng-tli.  This  would  make  a very  considerable 
difference  in  the  result  of  their  calculations.  Mr.  H.  could 
see  no  good  reason,  why,  as  these  counties  generally  voted 
witli  the  East  upon  this  subject,  and  were  opposed  to  a change 
of  the  Constitution,  they  should  not  be  taken  from  the  West 
and  added  to  the  East,  in  the  calculation.  If  this  were  done, 
there  would  be  a vast  difference  in  tlie  result.  Although  the 
white  population  of  the  West,  might  be  greater  than  that  of 
the  East ; yet  if  federal  numbers  and  property  were  taken 
into  the  estimate,  there  would  be  a corresponding  ascenden- 
cy in  the  East,  which  would  balance  the  majority  of  white 
population  in  the  West.  The  objects  of  government,  being 
the  protection  of  property,  as  well  as  the  security  of  the  li- 
berty of  the  citizens,  it  has  been  generally  conceded  that  the 
basis  of  rej)resentatinn  ought  to  be  according  to  population 
and  taxation. 

Gentlemen,  in  order  to  shew  the  great  inequality  of  repre- 
sentation, even  upon  this  basis,  have  taken  some  of  the  larger 
Eastern  counties,  with  some  of  the  Western — Halifax  and 
Rowan,  for  instance,  and  compared  them  with  Columbus, 
Jones,  and  other  counties.  If  tlie  large  counties  in  the  East, 
are  satisfied  with  the  present  Constitution,  wliy,  asked  Mr. 
Jl.  will  gentlemen  attempt  to  force  upon  them  a change  ? 

Mr.  H.  thought  there  was  much  weiglit  in  tlie  remark  of 
the  gentleman  from  Halifax,  (Mr.  Alston,)  that  wherever 
you  find  a large  county,  you  generally  find  smaller  ones 
near  it,  whose  representatives  having  the  same  interests,  the 
same  feelings,  and  frequently  the  same  connections,  to  repre- 
sent generally,  vote  alike,  upon  all  subjects  which  come  be- 
fore the  Legislature.  The  interests  of  the  larger  counties,  are 
therefore,  almost  as  much  protected  as  they  would  be,  if  their 
representatives  were  apportioned  according  to  their  relative 
wealth  and  jiopulation.  He  agreed  also  pc'rfectly  in  opinion 
with  the  gentleman  from  Wilmington,  (Mr.  Jones,)  that  it 
w as  impossible  to  weigh  out  political  justice,  in  exact  mathe- 
matical scales.  If  this  could  be  done,  it  would  be  necessary 
to  apportion  the  weight  not  only  of  each  individual  county, 
but  of  each  individual  member  of  society.  Viewing  the  sub- 
ject with  a mathematical  eye,  it  is  as  unjust  that  the  indivi- 
dual w ho  is  possessed  of  scarcely  any  property,  should  have 
the  same  weight  in  the  political  scale,  as  an  individual  who 
is  possessed  of  millions;  as  it  would  be  to  allow  Columbus 
the  same  weight  with  Rowan — but  we  are  under  the  necessi- 


51 


ty  of  submitting  to  inequalities  of  this  kind.  Some  standard 
must  be  found,  and  no  better  one  can  be  pointed  out,  than 
that  which  the  Constitution  has  erected. 

Tiie  eentleman  from  Salisbury,  has  another  objection  to 
the  pr^nt  Constitution.  It  produces  an  aristocracy  of  the 
smaller  counties,  and  gives  them  the  power  of  exercising  un- 
due influence  over  the  larger  ones  ! An  aristocracy  of  a few 
poor,  insignificant  counties  ! Columbus  is  to  tyrannize  over 
Rowan ! Who  Mr.  H.  asked,  had  ever  before  heard  of  an 
aristocracy  of  the  peasantry,  over  the  wealth  of  the  country  ? 
He  had  been  taught  to  believe  that  wherever  an  aristocracy 
existed,  it  generally  possessed  the  means  of  carrying  ite 
views  into  execution.  He  has  thought  it  one  of  the  qualities 
of  poverty  to  be  sometimes  dependent  on  wealth,  and  it  was 
the  character  of  power  to  encroach  upon  the-  weak  and  the 
defenceless. 

But  the  Gentleman  from  Rockingham  has  discovered 
dangers  from  an  aristocracy  of  a different  kind.  He  says,  if 
slave  property  be  represented  in  the  House  of  Commons,  and 
land  in  the  Senate,  it  is  giving  an  undue  weight  to  property, 
and  will  create  an  aristocracy  dangerous  to  the  country.  So 
that  gentlemen  go  to  different  extremes.  But  he  believed  it 
an  axiom  so  well  settled,  and  so  generally  conceded,  that  taxa- 
tion and  property  ought  to  be  taken  into  the  calculation  in 
fixing  the  basis  of  representation,  that  he  did  not  deem  it 
necessary  to  trouble  the  Committee  with  any  remarks  of  his 
upon  that  point. 

But  some  gentlemen  seem  disposed,  in  the  new  Constitu- 
tion, if  such  is  to  be  formed,  not  to  respect  property  at  all, 
but  to  fix  the  representation  according  to  population  alone. 
Mr.  H.  had  an  exalted  opinion  of  gentlemen  from  the  West. 
They  were,  generally  speaking,  honorable  and  independent 
men,  and  he  had  been  proud  to  vote  with  them  on  those  sub- 
jects where  the  best  interests  of  the  State  were  at  stake  : hut, 
he  hoped  gentlemen  would  pardon  him  for  believing,  if  popu- 
lation alone  were  made  the  basis  of  representation,  that  the 
slaves  of  the  East  would  pay  most  of  the  taxes  into  the  pub- 
lic treasury.  The  majority  would  have  the  power  of  so  or- 
dering things ; and  if  they  had  the  power,  it  was  idle  to  say 
they  would  not  abuse  it.  Whenever  an  extreme  case  shall 
occur,  they  will  use  this  power,  and  use  it  oppressively. 
The  Eastern  counties  already,  paid  more  than  their  propor- 
tion of  taxes.  The  power,  however,  is  now  pretty  equally 
balanced,  according  to  this  combined  principle  of  population, 
taxation  and  property,  and  he  preferred  it  should  remain  so# 


52 


But  we  are  told,  said  Mr.  H.  tliat  the  importance  of  the 
Western  counties  is  daily  advancing,  and  that  when  the  im- 
provements are  effected,  whieh  are  now  going  on  in  the  seve- 
ral rivei-s,  and  the  produce  can  be  gotten  to  market,  it^dll  be- 
come more  prosperous  and  wealthy.  It  will  be  time  enough 
to  mould  our  Constitution  to  this  state  of  things  when  it  shall 
actually  take  place.  He  would  venture  however,  to  predict, 
that  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State  is  destined  to  an  improve- 
ment, perhaps,  equal  to  the  West,  from  draining  their 
marshes  and  opening  their  country,  which  not  only  increases 
its  fertility,  but  renders  it  more  healthy.  There  is  no  part 
of  the  counti'y  in  which  they  have  greater  inducerhents  to 
make  improvements  in  the  science  of  Agriculture,  than  our 
brethren  in  the  East  have.  It  will  be  time  enough,  however, 
to  provide  for  this  state  of  things,  when  it  shall  hap]>en. 

Ml-.  H.  Mould  make  one  remark  on  the  Resolution,  which 
directs  the  manner  in  which  the  people  are  to  signify  their 
will  in  relation  to  a Convention.  It  proposes  that  the  ques- 
tion shall  be  decided  by  the  voters  for  Members  of  the  House 
of  Commons  writing  on  each  of  their  tickets,  “ Convention” 
or  “ No  Convention.”  This  would  be  losing  sight  entirely 
of  the  combined  principle— and  the  propriety  of  calling  a 
Convention  would  be  decided  by  population  alone.  He  M ould 
make  one  or  tM  O statements,  draM  n from  tbe  last  Census,  to 
shew  what  would  be  the  effect  of  this  vote,  and  how  complete- 
ly tbe  principle  before-mentioned,  would  be  departed  from. 
He  Mould  suppose  that  each  white  person  and  person  of  co- 
lor, in  each  county,  were  entitled  to  vote  ; for  although  that 
w'as  not  the  case,  and  the  number  m'Iio  are  actually  entitled 
to  vote,  is  much  smaller,  .as  the  proportionable  diminution 
would  be  about  the  same  in  each  county,  it  would  be  suffi- 
cient for  his  present  purpose,  and  would  save  the  necessity  of 
a calculation,  Mdiich  he  had  not  noM-  time  to  make.  Tak- 
ing this  then  as  a data,  merely  to  illustrate  his  idea  upon  the 
subject,  it  will  be  found  that  the  county  of  Burke  has  an  ag- 
gregate population  of  13,411,  and  having  only  1,917  slaves, 
would  give  11,594  votes,  or  in  that  proportion  ^ while  the 
county  of  Granville  has  an  aggregatepopulation  of  18,222,  and 
would,  upon  the  same  pinnciple,  give  only  9,151  votes.  The 
county  of  Buncombe,  with  an  aggregate  population  of  only 
10,542,  would  give  9,500  votes,  while  the  county  of  Halifax 
with  an  aggregate  population  of  17,237,  M ould  give  only  7,787 
votes.  These  calculations,  as  M'ell  as  many  others  which 
might  be  made,  prove  very  satisfactorily  to  my  mind,  that 
upon  the  question,  whether  a Convention  should  be  called  or 
not,  the  principle  so  (pueb  contended  for  in  the  course  of  this 


53 


discussion,  would  be  completely  conceded  by  adopting  the 
Resolution  on  your  table  ; and  that  an  undue  advantage 
would  be  given  to  the  Western  over  the  Eastern  counties. 
Again,  when  this  Convention  is  called,  and  the  Legislature 
undertake  to  j)rescribe-  the  number  each  county  shall  send, 
what  is  to  prevent  their  sending  more  ? When  you  once  call 
a Convention,  that  Convention  is  omnipotent.  The  Legisla- 
ture can  set  no  bounds  to  their  authority. 

In  concluding,  Mr.  H.  said,  much  feeling  had  been  brought 
to  bear  upon  this  subject.  Gentlemen  had  discussed  it  as  if  it 
were  entirely  an  Eastern  and  Western  question  ; and  a mere 
contest  about  power.  He  felt  no  particular  bias  either  in  fa- 
vor of  the  East  or  the  West.  The  county  which  he  had  the 
honor,  in  part,  to  represent,  was  a central  county : it  was 
also  a populous  and  wealthy  county,  and  its  situation  would 
not  be  much  affe.(  ted  whether  the  Resolutions  passed,  or  were 
rejected.  The  citizens  of  Granville  have  no  jealousy  of  their 
neighbors  ; they  know  their  rights,  and  place  too  high  a va- 
lue upon  the  intei-est  which  they  have  in  the  present  Consti- 
tution, to  be  willing  to  jeopai'dize  it  for  they  know  not  what. 
It  appeared  to  him,  that  it  was  incumbent  on  the  advocates 
of  a Convention,  to  shew  that  the  present  Constitution  has 
not  only  imperfections  on  paper — that  it  wants  proportion  and 
symmetry,  but  to  shew  that  some  real  practical  evils  have 
been  experienced  by  the  people,  from  those  defects.  If  they 
can  shew  that  the  rights  of  any  person  hav^e  been  sacrificed, 
or  that  any  person  has  a claim  upon  the  State  which  has  been 
unheard  and  unattended  to,  and  that  this  is  the  fault  of  the 
Constitution  and  not  of  the  Legislature,  then  there  would  be 
some  plausibility  in  urging  the  adoption  of  the  measure  be- 
fore us.  But,  though  gentlemen  had  been  called  upon  re- 
peatedly during  this  discussion,  they  have  not  been  able  to 
point  to  a single  grievance — a single  practical  evil,  which 
has  resulted  fiom  even  the  inequality  of  representation,  so 
much  complained  of ; he  took  it  for  granted  that  none  existed, 
except  the  want  of  a little  more  power. 

Sir,  said  Mr.  H.  when  we  are  about  to  call  a Conv^ention 
to  amend  our  Constitution,  it  should  be  recollected  that  a di- 
versity of  opinion  exists  here  and  elsewhere,  as  to  the  amend- 
ments which  it  is  proper  to  make.  Some  are  for  making 
white  population  alone  j some,  federal  numbers — and  others, 
the  combined  principle,  the  basis  of  representation.  Some 
are  for  electing  our  Governors,  Sheriffs,  Clerks,  ^c.  by  the 
people — others,  for  making  the  Judges  dependant  on  the  Le- 
gislature, and  removeable  at  pleasure,  upon  tlie  v ote  of  a cer- 
tain number.  In  this  wild  rage  for  improvement,  while  the 


54 


Convention  are  undertaking  to  amend  its  imperfections,  wliat 
senil  ity  liave  we  tliat  they  will  not  fritter  aw'ay  every  valua- 
ble feature  of  the  Constitution.  Mr.  11.  would  not  deny  the 
right  of  the  people  to  amend  the  Constitution  froip  time  to 
time ; but  the  Resolutions  on  the  table,  called  upon  us  to 
pi  ouounce  the,  Constitution  so  perfectly  defective,  so  rotten 
in  principle,  so  unequaU  unjust  and  anti-republican,  that  they 
ought  to  lay  violent  hands  on  it.  Whenever  an  actual  ne- 
cessity shall  exist,  the  people  w'ill  assert  their  power  and  ap- 
ply the  remedy.  He  did  not  believe  the  sentiment  expi’essed 
in  the  Resolutions  w^as  correct,  and  therefore,  could  not  vote 
for  them.  He  thought  the  voire  of  prudence  wmuld  say  to 
the  people,  as  you  have  enjoyed  your  rights  uninterruptedly 
for  upwards  of  forty  years  under  the  present  Constitution, 
and  have  not  a single  actual  grievance  to  complain  of,  you 
ought  not  to  consent  to  subvert  it. 

Mr.  Stkange  observed,  that  he  hoped  the  committee  w^oul  J 
not  he  alarmed  : he  would  occupy  their  attention  but  a few 
minutes.  He  had  intended  to  have  taken  no  part  in  the  de- 
bate, as  he  believed  that  every  member  came  to  that  house 
with  a determination  to  vote  as  his  individual  interest  led 
him  ; he  would  therefore  as  soon  expect  to  move  the  State 
from  its  foundations  by  the  explosion  of  a pop-gun,  as  by  ar- 
gument to  change  the  vote  of  a single  individual  on  the  com- 
mittee ; for  interest  presents  a shield  as  impregnable  to  ar- 
gument, as  that  of  the  mighty  Greek  to  the  weapons  of  his 
enemies. 

Mr.  S.  thought  the  true  question  before  the  committee  bad 
not  been  fairly  stated  and  met.  Enquiries  have  been  made 
vvhether  any  grievances  have  been  experienced  under  the  pre- 
sent system.  It  apjieared  to  him,  that  it  would  be  the  princi- 
pal objects,  and  perhaps  the  only  ones,  of  the  proposed  Con- 
vention, to  enquire  into  the  grievances  occasioned  by  the  de- 
fects in  our  present  Constitution,  and  to  recommend  measures 
suitable  for  their  remedy.  The  inquiry  is,  therefore,  at  this 
period,  premature. 

Gentlemen  have  said  mucli  of  the  evils  that  must  necessa- 
rily flow  from  calling  a Convention,  wdiich  he  considered  as 
without  foundation.  They  speak  of  it  as  though,  by  the  call 
of  a Convention,  we  should  be  turned  loose  into  the  wild  and 
trackless  desart  of  political  experiment ; that  we  should  be 
savage  and  lawless,  as  man  is  found  to  be  where  the  bonds 
of  society  have  never  been  imposed.  But  Mr.  S.  consi- 
dered the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  as  the  polar 
star  vyhich,  liowcvcr  we  might  he  tossed  about  upon  the 


55 


wild  and  tempestuous  ocean  of  political  experiment,  will 
exentually  serve  to  guide  us  safely  into  a haven  at  least 
as  commodious  as  that  in  which  we  are  now  moored.  The 
casquet  of  eloquence  has  been  torn  open  and  its  various 
jewels  scattered  abroad,  to  dazzle  and  allure  us  from  the  true 
question,  by  exciting  our  alarm,  and  enlisting  our  feelings. 
He  would  venture  to  assert,  that  whenever  a Convention  is 
called,  nothing  like  the  rage  and  turbulence  of  j)assion  will  be 
seen  in  it ; not  a blast  will  pass  over  it  to  ruifle  the  delibera- 
tive calmness  of  the  scene ; it  will  be  composed  of  materials 
above  the  influence  of  sectional  interest  and  individual  feeling. 

The  question  before  the  committee  has  iinpro|)ei-ly  been 
made  one  of  conflicting  interest  between  the  Eastern  and 
Western  counties  of  the  State ; whei-eas  it  should  be,  and 
really  is,  one  of  alleged  injustice  between  the  lai-ger  and 
smaller  counties.  There  are  small  counties  in  the  West,  as 
well  as  in  the  East,  who  have  as  much  political  power  as  the 
larger  counties.  This  is  unjust ; and  it  is  tlie  duty  of  every 
honest  man,  every  lover  of  justice,  to  do  all  in  his  power  to 
remedy  the  evil,  if  he  believes  in  its  existence,  no  matter  how 
it  may  operate  on  himself  individually  ; it  is  of  no  consequence 
to  him  whether  he  inhabit  a large  county  or  a small  one. 

Gentlemen  say  that  lai’ge  counties  have  no  cause  of  com- 
plaint on  this  ground,  because  they  have  small  counties  near 
them.  As  well  might  you  say  to  the  poor  man,  under  an 
Aristocratic  form  of  goverinnent,  who  complains  that  he  is  not 
represented,  “ Sir,  you  have  no  right  to  complain,  you  have 
rich  neighbors  near  you,  who  are  represented,  and  who  will, 
consequently,  take  care  of  your  interests.”  Would  such  an 
answer  be  viewed  by  him  as  consolation  suited  to  his  case  ? 
Would  he  not  view  it  as  the  taujit  of  scorn  ? As  the  mockery 
of  his  grievance  ? And  so  should  this  argument  be  view  ed  by 
the  inhabitants  of  large  counties. 

To  him,  this  question  a])peared  simple  and  unanswerable. 
Gentlemen  opposed  to  a Convention  have  no  right  to  open 
their  mouths  upon  the  subject  j they  have  no  right  to  say  we 
shall  have  no  Convention.  In  their  open  opposition  to  this 
measure,  they  say  to  the  supporters  of  the  present  proposi- 
tion : “ Although  your  fathers  have  fought  and  bled  to  secure 
your  liberty  and  independence ; although  for  this  your  soil 
has  drank  their  blood,  and  their  bones  have  whitened  on  its 
bosom,  you  shall  not  enjoy  the  blessings  secured  to  you  by 
their  valor.  Although  we  acknowledge  you  are  not  equally 
represented,  we  will  stand  self-created  guardians  thereof,  be- 
tween you  and  the  Constitution  ; although  it  is  the  charter  of 
your  OW'D  liberties,  purchased  bj  the  blood  of  your  ow^q  an- 


56 


ccstoi's.  ;ilthouii;li  \vc  iicknowlcdge  it  to  be  youe  own  exclusive 
peopei-ty,  yet  wc  will  take  it  upon  ourselves  to  form  a phalanx 
around  it,  and  bid  you  defiance;  you  shall  not,  unhallowed  as 
you  are,  obtrude  yourselves  into  its  presence,  or  touch  it  with 
your  polluted  liands.”  From  wlience  do  these  gentlemen  de- 
rive such  high  powers  ? They  have  them  not ; they  have  no 
right  to  say  to  the  free  people  of  this  State,  you  shall  not 
have  a Convention.  If,  when  tlie  vote  comes  to  be  taken  on 
the  subject,  they  think  it  inexpedient  to  hold  a Convention, 
they  can  put  in  a ticket  to  that  effect.  But  it  is  our  right, 
(said  Mr.  S.)  to  have  a Convention. 

It  is  painful  to  look  around  upon  tins  respectable  assem- 
blage— the  Legislative  Council  of  the  freest  people  on  the 
globe,  and  reflect  that  all  who  have  spoken,  and  all  who  will 
vote  on  this  important  question,  have  spoken,  and  will  vote 
under  tlie  sole  influence  of  wliat  they  believe  to  be  their  sec- 
tional and  individual  interest,  without  adverting  a moment, 
to  tlie  abstract  question  of  right.  If  tlie  question  w'ere  put 
to  evTry  man  in  this  committee,  separately,  individually  and 
alone,  “ are  those  Resolutions  reasonable  ?”  he  would  answer 
aflirmatively  ; but  men,  gentlemen,  appear  on  this  floor  in 
their  representative  capacity,  borne  away  on  the  tide  of  sec- 
tional and  individual  interest ; they  can  say  there  shall  be  no 
Convention,  and  right  and  justice  is  lost  in  the  flood. 

Mr.  J.  S.  Smith  observed,  that  the  proposition  befoi’e  the 
committee  w as  important,  as  it  proposed  to  submit  to  the  citi- 
zens of  this  State  the  propriety  of  calling  a Convention  to 
amend  their  Constitution. 

From  remarks  which  had  fallen  from  gentlemen  in  the 
course  of  this  debate,  it  seemed  to  be  doubted  whether  we  had 
a right  to  .interfere  w ith  the  Constitution.  He  presumed  no 
member  of  the  committee  meant  seriously  to  assert  such  a 
doctrine.  All  power,  said  Mr.  S.  belongs  to  the  people,  and 
they  have  a right  to  meet  and  consult  for  the  public  good, 
and  to  amend  tlieir  charter  of  government  as  they  please. 
This  is  a right  secured  by  the  Law  of  Nations.  To  prove 
which,  Mr.  S.  I'cad  an  extract  from  Fattel. 

It  is,  said  Mr.  S.  a well  established  principle,  that  the  peo- 
ple have  a right  to  alter  their  Constitution  at  pleasure.  But 
although  gentiemen  acknowledge  that  we  possess  this  right, 
they  are  not  for  affording  us  any  remedy.  They  ask  wdiat 
business  the  Legislature  ha^i  to  meddle  with  it?  And  they 
deny  that  the  people  have  any  right  to  act  upon  it.  So  that 
we  have  a right,  but  no  remedy.  This,  said  Mi-.  S.  cannot 
be  so.  And  though  the  Legislature  cannot  compel  the  people 


57 

to  hold  a Convention,  they  may  point  out  the  mode  in  which 
it  can  be  done. 

But  waving  that  point  of  the  subject,  it  is  said  to  be  inex» 
pedient  to  call  a Convention  provided  we  have  the  power  ; 
and  he  would  endeavour  to  follow  the  course  of  remark  which 
had  been  made  on  that  subject. 

The  gentleman  from  Halifax  gave  the  following  reasons 
why  it  would  be  inexpedient  to  call  a Convention.  He  said 
it  would  convulse  the  people  to  throw  into  their  hands  that 
power  which  is  their  own.  It  would  convulse  the  State,  and 
jeopardize  the  best  interests  of  the  country.  Where  does  the 
gentleman  find  grounds  fort  las  appreliension  ? Is  there  any 
thing  so  factious  in  the  people  of  North-Carolina  more  than 
in  other  States  of  the  Union  ? It  has  always  been  allowed 
that  this  State  is  the  Southern  State  of  steady  habits. 

Out  of  twenty-four  States,  twenty  he  believed  had  lately 
adopted  new  Constitutions,  Connecticut  (the  land  of  steady 
habits)  amongst  the  rest.  Even  the  factious  State  of  Georgia 
(as  it  has  sometimes  been  called)  has  submitted  the  question 
to  the  people,  who  had  shewn  that  they  were  not  anxious  to 
grasp  at  power;  on  the  contrary,  they  are  willing  to  let 
things  remain  as  they  are.  Was  the  State  of  New-York  con- 
vulsed by  faction  when  the  people  of  that  State  held  a Con- 
vention ? No  such  thing.  The  delegates  met  at  Albany,  and 
proceeded  to  business  in  a manner  becoming  the  Representa- 
tives of  a wise,  Republican  State.  Nor  lias  any  thing  like 
faction  appeared  in  any  of  the  other  States  on  like  occasions. 
If,  said  Mr.  S.  you  agree  to  submit  the  question  to  the  peo- 
ple, as  is  pi’oposed,  and  a majority  be  in  favor  of  the  mea- 
sure, the  question  will  be,  what  is  to  be  done  ? The  people 
will  be  told  that  the  Convention,  when  assembled,  will  have 
power  to  abolish  such  of  our  Constitutional  provisions  as 
they  think  proper  and  to  make  new  ones,  and  they  will  ap- 
point for  this  purpose,  the  best  qualified  Citizens  in  the 
State. 

In  the  election  of  Members  to  the  General  Assembly,  the 
citizens  are  careless,  believing  that  any  man  of  good  inten- 
tions, and  good  common  sense,  will  answer  the  purpose  5 
but  when  a new  Constitution  is  to  be  formed,  you  will  see 
every  man  repair  to  the  poll,  and  the  best  and  fittest  men  ia 
the  community  wilt  be  chosen.  No  man  in  the  State  will  be 
exempt  from  serving  in  a Convention  ; even  your  Governor, 
or  your  Judges,  or  Ministers  of  the  Gospel,  might  be  elected 
to  that  body.  You  may  therefore  bring  together  the  great- 
est talents  in  the  State.  And  can  it  be  supposed,  for  a mo- 
ment, that  such  a body  would  be  factious^  or  adopt  any  mea- 

8 


58 


sui  tMvliidi  would  not  be  for  the  welfare  and  happiness  of  the 
State  ? 

But  gontleincn  have  said,  that  under  the  ]>resent  state  of 
filings,  uotliiug  like  oppression  takes  place.  Mr.  S.  admitted 
tiiat  we  at  present  enjoy  liberty  and  a good  degree  of  hap- 
piness ; and  that  the  Constitution  under  which  we  live  is 
a good  one,  considering  the  time  when  it  was  made.  But 
since  its  formation,  times  and  circumstances  have  changed. 

Gentlemen  call  loudly  on  the  friends  of  the  Resolutions,  to 
shew  any  instance  in  which  the  people  are  deprived  of  their 
1‘igbtsj  and  what  necessity  there  is  for  calling  a Convention. 

Mr.  S.  said  he  would  examine  this  subject.  We  allege 
that  our  Representation  is  unequal,  and  we  name  two  Coun- 
ties to  prove  it,  Row;an  and  Columbus.  The  citizens  of  Co- 
lumbus have  six  times  the  portion  of  Representation  in  the 
General  Assembly  that  the  citizens  of  Rowan  have.  What 
are  tlie  rights  of  a citizen  ? His  lirst  rights  are  his  natural 
rights,  to  life,  liberty,  and  the  possession  of  hajipiness.  But 
when  he  enters  into  the  social  compact,  he  surrenders  some 
of  his  natural  rights  for  the  sake  of  enjoying  his  political 
rights.  All  men  are  born  equal,  and  every  man  similarly 
situated  is  entitled  to  equal  rights  and  equal  privileges.  This 
being  a fact,  we  have  a right  to  complain  that  the  citizens  of 
the  large  counties  do  not  possess  equal  political  rights  with 
the  citizens  of  small  counties.  And  if  lie  must  speak  of  East- 
ern and  Western  (though  he  disliked  the  distinction)  our 
people  believe  that  they  do  not  possess  their  full  share  of  Re- 
presentation in  the  Legislature.  That  the  Eastern  Members 
make  laws  for  us,  and  tax  us  without  our  consent  j and  they 
make  our  Governors,  Judges  and  other  Officers.  The  East 
has  the  majority,  and  consequently  the  power,  and  though  they 
may  not  use  it  improperly,  they  may  do  so  if  it  pleases  them. 
This  we  call  a grievance.  To  deny  to  freemen  an  equal 
voice  in  making  law's,  laying  taxes,  ^c.  is  Anti-republican 
and  Aristocratic.  It  may  be  called  Republicanism  ; but  it  is 
Aristocratic  Republicanism,  just  such  as  he  would  call  the 
Republicanism  of  Virginia,  or  that  of  any  other  State  where 
it  is  necessary  to  have  a freehold  to  entitle  a man  to  a vote. 

Here,  then,  said  Mr.  S.  we  present  a grievance.  Here  we 
shew  you  something  like  oppression.  What,  asked  Mr.  S. 
is  more  degrading  to  a man  than  to  feel  that  he  has  less  poli- 
rights  than  Ins  neighbour?  To  discover  that  the  citizen 
of  a small  county  has  five  or  six  times  the  pow'er  that  he  has  ? 

For  what,  asked  Mr.  S.  did  our  forefathers  fight  ? It  was 
for  a free  Republican  Government  and  equal  rights.  The 
gentleman  from  Halifax  had  told  the  committee  somethings 


59 


about  the  stnig.^le  which  had  taken  place  in  Connecticut  be- 
tween the  powers  of  Church  and  State.  It  was  a liappy 
stiTigi^le.  He  differed  entirely  in  opinion  from  the  gentle- 
man from  Newhern  on  this  subject.  It  was,  said  Mr.  S.  a 
struggle  between  the  State  and  the  Churcli,  and  he  thanked 
God  that  the  State  liad  prevailed — That  they  had  thrown  off 
the  yoke  of  the  Clergy,  and  established  a free  Government. 

The  gentleman  from  Halifax  next  makes  a comparison  be- 
tween the  situation  of  our  small  counties  and  the  small 
States — a comparison  that  is  altogether  inapplicable.  A 
State  is  a sovereign,  indissoluble  body  politic.  A County, 
on  the  contrary,  has  no  power  but  what  is  derived  from  the 
sovereign  authority  of  tlie  State.  As  a State,  Delaware  is 
equally  sovereign  with  New-York.  When  the  thirteen  States 
met  to  form  a National  Goverjiment,  it  became  necessary  to 
make  a compromise  with  the  small  States  of  Rhode  Island 
and  Delaware,  and  they  were  accordingly  allowed  the  same 
Representation  in  the  Senate  with  the  other  States.  But  has 
the  little  county  of  Columbus  any  sovereignty  ? Certainly 
not.  Why,  then,  is  it  entitled  to  more  Representatives  in 
proportion  to  its  size,  than  other  counties. 

The  gentleman  next  alleges,  that  there  would  be  great  dif- 
ficulty in  a Convention  about  the  proper  basis  of  Represen- 
tation. He  (Mr.  S.)  had  no  doubt  there  would  be  some  dif- 
ference of  opinion  on  this  subject.  But  the  members,  after 
some  discussion,  would  come  to  an  understanding  on  the  sub- 
ject. He  did  not  believe  the  citizens  of  the  West  had  any  ill- 
will  towards  their  brethren  of  the  East.  He  was  certain 
that  he  himself  had  none ; and  if  a Convention  were  to  be 
held,  the  basis  of  Representation  would  be  fixed  on  the  prin- 
ciple of  population,  o)i  the  federal  principle,  or  on  population 
and  taxation  combined.  Let  us,  said  he,  come  together,  and 
an  opportunity  will  be  afforded  of  conciliation  and  compro- 
mise. But  while  the  two  sections  stood  aloof  from  each 
other,  nothing  could  be  effected. 

The  gentleman  from  Newbern  complained  that  the  friends 
of  these  Resolutions  confined  themselves  to  the  unfair  Repre- 
sentation, and  did  not  point  out  the  defects  in  the  Constitu- 
tion. Mr.  S.  said,  that  was  the  pi-inciple  defect,  and  was 
considered  a grievance  which  could  not  be  denied. 

But  the  same  gentleman  says,  this  is  not  a proper  time  for 
amending  the  Constitution ; tliat  the  country  is  very  much 
embarrassed  in  a pecuniary  point  of  view,  and  therefore  unfit 
to  be  entrusted  witli  the  power  of  amending  the  Constittuion. 

Mr.  S.  said,  it  was  true  that  the  embarrassments  which  the 
.gentleman  spoke  of  bad  existed,  and  perhaps,  in  some  degree. 


60 


still  exist ; but  he  did  not  see  what  this  had  to  do  with  the 
subject.  The  Constitutions  of  Connecticut,  New-York,  Mas- 
sachusetts and  Maine  liad  been  formed  during  the  state  of 
things  alluded  to,  and  we  have  heard  of  no  disorder  attend- 
ant on  the  Conventions  formed  for  those  purposes.  Nor 
have  any  of  them  adoided  any  article  growing  out  of  the  pe- 
culiar situation  of  the  country.  The  Constitution  of  tlie  U. 
States,  indeed,  forms  a barrier  tcj  any  such  provision,  as  it 
prohibits  any  thing  from  being  made  a tender  in  payment 
but  gold  and  silver  coin.  Tlie  States  cannot  therefore  emit 
bills  of  credit. 

Were  a Convention  to  be  held,  said  Mr.  S.  the  subject  of 
the  embari’assment  of  the  times  would  not  be  brought  before 
it.  We  shall  shew  you,  before  the  close  of  the  present  ses- 
sion, that  your  new  Bank  scheme  without  a specie  capital,  or 
any  other  wild  scheme  will  be  discarded  by  the  present 
Legislature ; and  if  it  will  not  countenance  projects  of  this 
kind,  how  can  it  be  expected  that  a Convention  would  act 
less  wisely  ? 

But  gentlemen  say  our  Constitution  has  had  an  existence 
of  45  years,  and  therefore  ought  not  to  be  touched.  If  an 
argument  of  this  kind  ought  to  have  any  weight,  it  might 
have  been  used  with  much  greater  force  against  amending 
the  Constitution  or  Charter  of  Connecticut,  which  had  exist- 
ed since  the  days  of  King  Charles.  But  such  arguments 
had  no  weight  there,  and  they  are  entitled  to  none  here. 
Time  cannot  sanctify  error.  If  your  Constitution  have 
nothing  to  recommend  it  but  the  rust  of  antiquity,  that  ought 
not  to  protect  it.  If  you  are  not  able  to  shew  that  it  is  per- 
fect in  all  its  parts,  or  superior  to  any  Constitution  which 
the  present  age  can  form,  the  people  ought  to  have  an  oppor- 
tunity of  amending  it  when  they  express  a wish  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Jefferson  had  been  referred  to  as  authority  for  the 
system  of  Representation  adopted  in  Virginia.  You  are  told 
that  a portion  of  the  people  in  that  State  are  disfranchised  ; 
that  no  man  who  is  not  possessed  of  a freehold  can  vote  for  a 
Delegate  to  their  House  of  Representatives.  Mr.  S.  said  he 
objected  to  this  system.  He  cared  not  who  was  in  favour  of 
it.  He  respected  Mr.  Jefferson  as  mucli  as  any  man  ; but 
he  would  not  call  such  a system  of  government  a Democratic 
Republic  ; but,  in  the  language  of  Vattd,  an  Aristocratic  Re- 
public. [Mr.  S.  read  a passage  from  Vattcl  in  support  of  his 
opinion.] 

What,  asked  Mr.  S.  constitutes  the  strength  of  the  State  ? 
There  are  two  kinds  of  strength  ^ the  one  moral,  the  other 
physical.  The  moral;  is  the  good  opinion  which  the  people 


61 


entertain  of  the  goodness  of  its  form  ; the  physical,  is  the 
force  and  ability  which  it  possesses  to  meet  an  enemy.  Sup- 
pose your  Republic  is  invaded,  all  your  citizens  would  be 
called  upon  to  defend  it,  whether  they  have  land  or  not,  and 
if  a man  be  obliged  to  fight  for  his  country,  he  surely  ought 
to  enjoy  the  rights  of  a citizen. 

The  next  gentleman  who  addressed  tlie  committee  on  this 
subject  was  ft-om  Beaufort,  (Mr.  Blackledge.)  That  gentle- 
man acknowledged  that  the  Western  people  were  not  cor- 
rectly represented.  This  was  a generous  acknowledgment, 
and  nothing  more  than  he  expected  from  the  candour  of  that 
gentleman.  But  he  nevertheless  demanded  of  us  a catalogue 
of  our  grievances.  He  admits  we  liavc  not  justice  done  us, 
but  demands  of  us  to  shew  where  we  have  it  not.  The  gen- 
tleman goes  on  to  remark,  tliat  tliougli  the  East  does  not 
e(jual  the  West  in  population,  the  towns  of  Newbern,  Wil- 
mington, &c.  pay  all  the  taxes  paid  by  this  State  to  the  Gene- 
ral Government.  It  is  true  tliat  those  places  are  the  ports  of 
entry,  and  that  the  Revenue  Officers  reside  there,  and  that 
our  merchants  first  pay  the  duties  on  shipping  and  on  goods 
imported.  But  if  the  gentleman  had  read  a little  more  on  the 
subject  of  Political  Economy,  he  would  have  found,  that 
though  the  merchant  pays  these  duties  in  the  first  instance, 
they  are  ultimately  )>aid  by  the  consumei-s  of  the  goods  im- 
ported, who  live  in  tlie  interior  of  tlie  country. 

The  gentleman  from  Wilmington,  (Mr.  Jones)  next  ad- 
dressed the  committee,  vei-y  eloquently  and  very  feelingly. 
He  regretted  that  so  much  feeling  and  zeal  had  been  shewn 
by  the  advocates  of  these  resolutions.  Mr.  S.  said  it  was  na- 
tural that  gentlemen  should  exj)r*ess  themselves  feelingly  when 
they  had  to  claim  the  rights  of  freemen,  of  which  they  were 
unjustly  deprived.  But  the  alarm  which  was  taken  in  rela- 
tion to  our  forcibly  obtaining  our  rights,  had  no  foundation. 
We  will  bear  the  evil  of  which  we  complain,  until  our  Eas- 
tern friends  can  be  prevailed  upon  to  do  us  justice ; but  we 
shall  never  cease  to  claim  our  rights. 

Gentlemen  speak  of  threats  which  have  appeai’ed  in  some 
newspaper.  This  was  no  doubt  the  production  of  some  in- 
temperate person  ; but  a publication  of  this  kind  ought  not  to 
be  charged  upon  the  friends  of  tiiese  resolutions.  So  far  as 
he  knew  the  Western  people,  he  could  pledge  himself  they 
meant  to  use  no  other  weapons  but  those  of  fair  argument. 

A Convention  is  objected  to,  because  it  is  committing  all 
the  political  powers  of  the  community  into  the  hands  of  the 
people  j and  it  is  feared  that  when  the  delegates  to  a Conven- 
tion met,  they  might  break  down  some  of  the  old  barriers  of 


the  Government.  It  is  apjn’eliemled  that  certain  powers 
would  be  taken  trom  the  Judiciary  ami  placed  in  the  Lcs^isla- 
ture.  He  did  not  fear  any  tiling  of  the  kind.  Though  some 
two  or  three  gentlemen  might  liave  given  such  an  ojiinion,  he 
believed  the  people  of  the  West  are  as  much  attached  to  our 
Judiciary,  as  any  other  citizens  in  the  State.  No  danger,  he 
believed,  need  be  apprehended  from  that  quarter. 

Are  you  afraid,  asked  Mr.  S.  to  trust  the  peojile  with  the 
power  which  belongs  to  them  ? The  doctrine,  that  the  peo- 
ple are  unable  to  govern  themselves,  cannot  be  tolerated  in 
this  fi-ee  country.  It  might  suit  the  subjects  of  George  IV, 
or  of  the  Emperor  of  all  the  Russias,  but  he  hoped  it  would 
find  but  few  advocates  w ith  us.  He  should  always  be  the 
supporter  of  self-government.  It  is  contained  in  the  first 
clause  of  our  Declaration  of  Rights  ; and  the  people  have  ne- 
ver passed  the  sovereignty  out  of  their  hands,  and  he  trusted 
never  would. 

The  next  gentleman  who  addressed  the  committee  was  from 
Granville,  (Mr.  Hillman)  and  he  adopted  the  same  strain  of 
argument  with  Ids  friends  on  that  side  of  the  question.  He 
asks  if  the  Governor  be  not  now,  in  effect,  elected  by  the  peo- 
ple, through  their  representatives.  Mr.  S.  observed,  that  he 
had  already  stated  that  the  present  majority  of  the  Legisla- 
ture elect  the  officers  of  Government  and  make  laws  without 
our  consent,  which  is  a sufficient  answer  to  the  gentleman’s 
remark. 

But,  asks  the  gentleman,  if  you  form  a new  Constitution, 
may  not  that  also  have  its  defects  ? Mr.  S.  jiresumed  it  would. 
It  would  be  the  work  of  man,  and  as  man  is  imperfect,  his 
works  will  necessaiily  be  so.  But  what,  said  he,  does  this 
prove  ? Not  that  our  present  Constitution  cannot  be  amend- 
ed ? Cannot  be  made  more  conformable  to  republican  princi- 
ples ? It  certainly  proves  no  such  thing. 

The  gentleman  asks  if  the  Constitution  of  the  U.  States  be 
not  republican  ? It  certainly  is,  said  Mr.  S.  and  he  would 
be  content  to  make  ours  as  like  it  as  possible ; for  he  consi- 
dered it  a good  republican  Constitution.  But  the  gentleman 
enquires  if  political  justice  can  be  weighed  in  a balance  ? 
Though  this  cannot  be  done,  w e might  come  nearer  to  it  than 
to  allow  one  man  to  have  six  times  as  much  as  another.  We 
can  approach  equal  justice  something  nearer  than  our  pre- 
sent Constitution  does. 

But  the  question  is  asked,  why  a man  with  half  a million 
of  dollars  has  not  more  political  power  than  a man  without 
a dollar  ? A rich  man  has  no  more  pow'er  in  the  election  of 
a member  of  this  House  than  the  poorest  man  of  the  commu- 


63 


iiity  ; but  our  Constitution  provides  for  the  security  of  the 
ricii  in  the  Senate,  whose  members  are  elected  by  landhold- 
ers, and  witliout  whose  consent  no  law  can  pass  to  injure  the 
man  of  wealth.  The  riches  of  a wealthy  man  give  him  also 
an  indirect  influence  in  elections,  as  he  can  generally  draw 
after  him  a number  of  votes  from  men  who,  in  some  way  or 
other,  are  dependant  on  him,  though  this  is  contrary  to  our 
principles  of  political  Justice.  Men  are  equal,  and  ought  to 
have  equal  j)o!itical  rights. 

The  gentleman  intimated  that  if  the  Western  people  had 
the  power  they  would  abuse  it.  But  he  assigned  no  reason 
w hy  the  people  of  the  West  would  be  more  likely  to  abuse 
power  than  those  of  the  East.  Mr.  S.  did  not  know  that  the 
Eastern  people  had  abused  the  power  which  they  have.  But 
the  better  way  is  to  distribute  the  power,  and  thus  give  nei- 
ther section  of  the  State  an  opportunity  of  abusing  it. 

But  the  gentleman  asks,  if  any  county  has  presented  a 
grievance  to  this  Legislature  which  has.  not  been  properly 
attended  to  ? Mr.  S.  said  the  Legislature  had  not  the  power 
of  applying  a remedy  to  the  grievance  which  they  presented, 
except  by  adopting  the  Resolutions  now  before  the  commit- 
tee. 

Mr.  S.  apologised  for  detaining  the  committee  so  long  j 
but  w'ould  draw  his  remarks  to  a close.  He  would  observe, 
that  most  of  the  old  States  had  held  Conventions  for  the 
amendment  of  their  Constitutions,  and  in  every  instance  the 
Constitutions  thus  submitted  to  the  people  have  been  much 
improved  ; and  he  had  no  hesitation  in  believing,  that  if  the 
Legislature  would  consent  to  submit  our  Constitution  in  like 
manner,  the  people  have  wisdom  enough  to  present  us  with  a 
Constitution  not  inferior  to  any  other  in  the  Union.  The 
people  of  this  State  are  as  watchful  of  their  rights  as  those  of 
any  other  State.  When  the  Federal  Constitution  was  pre- 
sented to  them  for  adoption,  they  did  not  embrace  it  at  first ; 
but  after  due  consideration  and  considerable  debate,  they 
finally  accepted  of  it.  They  have,  at  no  time,  been  regard- 
less of  the  riglits  and  liberties  of  freemen. 

The  misfortune  is,  said  Mr.  S.  that  gentlemen  will  not  be 
convinced  by  argument,  because  they  have  the  power  and 
are  determined  to  keep  it.  No  argument  1ms  any  effect  upon 
them.  Political  power  to  a Legislator,  is  like  gold  to  a mi- 
ser. He  knew  of  no  instance  of  persons  surrendering  politi- 
cal power  without  a struggle. 

Mr.  S.  concluded  by  observing,  that  it  is  very  easy  to  in- 
troduce plausible  objections  to  any  measure,  however  just 
and  reasonable  ; to  alarm  the  feelings  of  the  timid,,  and  lead 


64 


them  to  a])])i’chen(l  the  destruction  of  their  liberties.  When 
the  present  Constitution  of  the  United  States  was  first  pro- 
posed, a great  alarm  was  raised,  and  much  evil  predicted. 
The  Articles  of  Confederation  were  clung  to.  It  was  said 
that  tlie  States  were  about  to  give  up  every  thing,  and  that 
the  liberties  of  the  people  were  about  to  be  subverted.  Yet 
the  event  lias  proved  tiiat  all  the  predictions  then  made  had 
no  foundation  ; for  no  man  can  now  be  found  who  does  not 
rejoice  in  the  change,  and  feel  grateful  for  the  blessings  which 
we  enjoy  under  the  present  government  of  the  Union. 

He  hoped  tlie  committee  would  weigh  the  subject  maturely 
and  dispassionately,  and  decide  upon  it  according  to  the  best 
dictates  of  their  judgment.  The  observations  which  he  had 
made,  were  such  as  his  duty  called  for,  and  which  he  believed 
to  be  founded  in  truth.  Relying  on  the  justice  and  magnani- 
mity of  the  committee,  he  hoped  they  would  allow  tliis  ques- 
tion to  be  submitted  to  the  people  ; and  with  their  decision, 
whatever  it  might  be,  he  should  be  satisfied. 

Mr.  Hii-LMAif  explained. 

Mr.  Hawks. — I have  watched  with  patient  attention,  Mr. 
Chairman,  the  progi-ess  of  the  gentleman  from  Hillsborough, 
(Mr.  Smith,)  in  his  march  over  this  wide  field  of  controversy. 
I have  seen  him,  in  the  chivalrous  spirit  of  reform,  pass  by 
no  combatant  who  has  yet  appeared  in  the  contest,  and,  like 
Gulliver  among  the  Lilliputians,  he  has  endeavored  to  throw 
the  pigmies  who  suri’ounded  him,  hither  and  thither,  at  his 
own  will  and  pleasure.  The  humble  individual  who  now  ad- 
dresses you,  has  not  escaped  his  animadversions,  and  there- 
fore hopes  the  committee  will  pardon  him  for  again  entering 
the  lists. 

For  himself,  Mr.  H.  said,  he  thanked  the  gentleman  for 
that  ray  of  illumination  he  had  thrown  on  the  subject  by  quo- 
tations from  Vattcl  on  the  Law  of  JWitions.  The  gentleman 
deserved  credit  for  the  correctness  of  his  quotations,  and  Mr. 
H.  said  he  had  only  to  lament,  that  in  his  search  for  truth, 
the  gentleman  had  not  proceeded  far  enough  to  discover  the 
whole  truth.  This  eminent  writer  had  been  rejiresented  to 
the  committee  as  laying  down  the  principle,  that  in  republics, 
as  the  power  belongs  to  the  people,  the  people  have  the  right 
to  make  what  Constitution  they  please  ; and  we,  said  Mr.  H. 
are  called  on  to  adoj)t,  as  a fair  conclusion  from  this  princi- 
ple, the  strange  position  advanced  yesterday,  for  the  first 
time,  by  the  gentleman  from  Fayetteville,  (Mr.  Strange)  that 
as  mdividuals  in  t'le  great  mass  of  the  community,  we  are  en- 


65 


titled  to  a vote  on  the  subject,  but  when  placed  in  a legislative 
capacity,  it  is  beyond  the  power  entrusted  to  us.  This  novel 
idea  should  be  answered  by  Vattel  himselfj  he  was  too  pro- 
found in  his  views  to  lay  down  as  a rule  of  action  a proposi- 
tion so  indefinite  as  this  ; it  would  therefore  be  found,  upon 
consulting  liim  further,  that  in  all  contemplated  alterations  of 
an  established  form  of  government,  the  question  of  expediency 
was  expressly  recognized  as  a previous  one.  And  who  should 
answer  the  question  ? The  people,  by  their  delegates  con- 
vened in  supreme  legislative  council ; and  when,  said  Mr. 
H.  this  General  Assembly  shall  have  voted  it  to  be  expedient, 
we  will  return  to  the  ranks  of  our  fellow-citizens,  and,  acting 
on  the  principle  read  from  Vattel,  by  the  gentleman  from 
Hillsborough,  will  proceed  to  tlie  exercise  of  our  rights  as 
private  individuals. 

In  directing  the  attention  of  the  committee  to  the  benefit 
which  might  be  derived  from  the  history  of  the  sister  States 
in  the  confederacy,  Mr.  H.  said  he  had  yesterday  stated  what 
he  had  seen  in  Connecticut,  at  the  time  tliat  State  met  in  Con- 
vention for  the  amendment  of  its  Constitution.  This  state- 
ment had  been  questioned.  The  cliange  had  been  called  by 
the  gentleman  from  Hillsborough,  a contest  between  Church 
and  State,  in  w hich  the  latter  obtained  the  victory.  Mi*.  H. 
said,  that  a very  slight  acquaintance  with  the  State  of  Con- 
necticut, was  sufficient  to  shew  that  this  was  not  the  case. 
That  Church  which  was  represented  as  so  obnoxious,  con- 
tained within  its  body  a majority  ot  the  people  ; in  the  strug- 
gle, therefore,  it  must  have  been  triumphant.  The  fact  was, 
it  was  a mere  contest  for  power  between  those  who  had  it, 
and  those  who  wanted  it,  but  who  had  no  Constitutional  right 
to  it.  The  demon  of  faction  there  stalked  abroad,  and  its 
ti*ack  may  now  be  seen  by  the  mournful  vestiges  of  desolation. 
The  wisest  and  best  men  in  the  State  stemmed  the  torrent  in 
vain  ; they  could  only  mourn  over  the  calamities  of  their 
country,  and  the  remembrance  of  its  condition  almost  wrung 
from  them  tears  of  blood. 

It  might  not  be  amiss,  Mr.  H.  said,  here  to  advert  to  ano- 
ther fact  in  the  history  of  the  adoption  of  the  Constitution  of 
Connecticut,  as  it  might,  perhaps,  convince  gentlemen  that 
those  States  which  had  in  this  debate  been  applauded  for  their 
independence  in  demolishing  the  fabrics  reared  by  the  hands 
of  their  fathers,  were  not  in  all  things  wmrthy  of  imitation. 
The  Convention  of  Connecticut  met,  formed  its  Constitution, 
sent  it  forth  to  the  people,  and  called  on  them  with  insulting 
haste  to  decide  after  the  deliberation  of  a fortnight,  on  the 
adoption  of  an  instrument  under  w hich  they  and  their  poste- 

P 


66 


1‘ity  woi-c  to  live  pcrliaps  for  centuries.  Changes  in  goveru- 
mcjit  were  not  to  be  made  foi-  light  and  transient  causes,  and 
wlienever  any  change  sliould  be  attempted  in  our  Constitu- 
tion, ^Ir.  H.  hoped  it  would  be  done  with  wisdom  and  deli- 
beration. To  make  a Constitution,  is  not  the  work  of  a day, 
nor  ouglit  it  to  be  entrusted  to  common  hands  ; but  no  gentle- 
man could  say  that  in  the  present  temper  of  the  times,  the 
timid  haste  of  tliose  who  might  fear  the  loss  of  power,  w'ould 
not  force  upon  us  the  precipitate  course  pursued  by  Connec- 
ticut. 

The  attention  of  the  committee  had  been  called,  by  the  gen- 
tlejnan  from  Hillsboi'ough,  to  the  Constitution  of  the  Ujiited 
States.  We  have  been  told,  said  Mr.  H.  that  in  every  cor- 
rect system  of  representation,  it  is  necessai-y,  in  order  to 
equalize  political  power,  to  take  into  view  both  the  population 
and  property  of  a community.  This  is  the  principle  which  I 
recognized  yesterday.  The  Constitution  of  the  General  Gov- 
ernment, embraces  this  principle,  and  so  does  our  Constitu- 
tion ; but  to  make  representation  ■perfectly  equal,  is,  as  was 
remarked  by  the  gentleman  fron»  Granviile,  (Mr.  Hillman,) 
impossible ; and  therefore  the  Federal  Constitution,  so  far  as 
representation  is  concerned,  was  formed  in  the  spirit  of  com- 
promise. And  however  gentlemen  may  ridicule  the  idea, 
there  must  have  been  a principle  of  sovereignty  in  our  coun- 
ties 5 and  when  these  several  counties  adopted  the  Constitu- 
tion, it  was  done  in  the  same  spirit  of  compromise. 

But  it  is  objected  against  the  presejit  system,  that  the  Le- 
gislature appoints  the  Governor  a>id  Judges,  and  in  this  objec- 
tion the  real  motive  of  opposition  w as  developed ; here  was 
seen  the  hand  grasping  for  poTver.  He  did  not  think  the  gen- 
tlemen from  the  West  had  any  cause  of  complaint  against 
their  fi-iends  from  the  East,  on  this  ground.  The  West  had 
certainly  enjoyed  its  full  share  of  honorable  appointments ; 
and  from  the  county  in  which  the  gentleman  from  Hillsborough 
lives,  no  less  than  six  members  of  the  bar  had  been  taken, 
within  a few  years,  to  grace  the  bench  of  our  superior  courts. 

The  gentleman  from  Granville  had  yesterday  called  upon 
the  friends  of  the  resolutions  to  place  their  fingers  on  any  ac- 
tual grievance  grow  ing  out  of  the  present  system.  None  liad 
been  shewm.  The  evils  complained  of,  said  Mr.  H.  exist  only 
upon  paper  ; and  we  are  asked  to  alter  our  Constitution  be- 
cause the  delicate  ears  of  hypercritical  gentlemen  are  offended 
with  its  phraseology.  But  this  morning,  the  gentleman  from 
Hillsborough  tells  us  in  general  terms,  that  our  Constitution 
will  be  greatly  improved  by  a revision,  and  at  the  same  time 
admits  that  the  new  system  will  probably  be  stamped  with 


67 


the  impress  of  human  infirmity.  Sir,  I thank  him  for  the 
admission,  for  on  it  we  may  build.  I had  thought,  from  the 
remarks  of  the  other  friends  of  these  resolutions,  that  we  had 
readied  that  era  of  intelligence,  when  we  could  not  fail  to  bet- 
ter our  Constitution  ; but  if  the  labors  of  the  present  enlight- 
ened age,  like  those  of  the  last,  are  to  be  stamped  with  imper- 
fection, I would  submit  it  to  the  understandings  of  those  who 
hear  me,  whether  it  be  not  better  to  bear  the  evils  tliat  we 
have,  “ than  fly  to  others  that  we  know  not  of.”  We  know 
what  are  the  present  defects  in  our  government,  but  we  can- 
not foresee  what  may  be  the  defects  in  any  new  Constitution 
which  may  be  formed.  Mr.  H.  said  he  would  point  them  to 
the  wisdom  of  these  latter  days  as  displayed  in  the  new  Con- 
stitutions formed  by  Alabama,  Missouri,  New-York,  &c.  and 
he  asked  to  be  shewn  any  one  of  them  better  than  ours. 

He  had  asserted  yesterday,  that  if  representation  was  to  be 
regulated  by  numbers  and  wealth,  there  was  no  inequality. 
His  honorable  friend  from  Beaufort,  (Mr.  Blackledge,)  had 
repeated  the  sentiment,  and  declared  that  the  revenue  paid 
into  the  public  coffers,  from  the  towns  on  the  sea-board,  ex- 
ceeded all  that  was  furnished  by  tlie  Western  counties.  This 
had  been  contested,  and  considered  as  totally  irrelevant  to  the 
present  question.  Mr.  H.  thought  it  had  much  to  do  with  the 
subject.  North- Carolina,  viewed  as  an  independent  State, 
possessed  tlie  same  common  interest ; and  that  which  tended 
to  diminish  the  wealth  of  individuals,  inhabiting  any  portion  of 
her  territory,  tended  at  the  same  time  to  the  common  injury, 
for  individual  wealth  was  the  foundation  of  national  wealth. 
The  Eastern  section  of  the  State,  interested  in  shipping  to  a 
vast  amount,  and  continually  importing  goods  subject  to  duty, 
poured  into  the  treasury  chest  of  the  Federal  Government,  a 
sum  which,  superadded  to  the  revenue  furnished  by  the  East 
to  the  State  Treasury,  made  an  aggregate,  compared  with 
which,  the  amount  of  revenue  raised  in  the  W'est  was  small 
indeed.  But  some  gentleman  had  been  pleased  to  say,  that 
the  Treasury  of  the  United  States  was  not  the  Treasury  of 
North-Carolina.  True,  said  Mr.  H.  it  is  not  our  Treasiu’y, 
Sir,  but  it  serves  in  various  ways  to  protect  a portion  of  our 
territory,  which  furnishes  part  of  the  funds  in  the  State  Trea- 
sury, and  thereby  insures  the  permanency  of  those  funds. 
Mr.  H.  said  that  a comment  on  the  remark  of  his  friend  from 
Rockingham,  (Mr.  Morehead,)  would  illustrate  his  idea. 
That  gentleman  had  said  that  our  countrymen  of  the  West 
were  ready  with  their  thousands  of  armed  men,  to  defend  us 
in  time  of  danger.  For  myself,  Mr.  H.  proceeded,  I thank 
the  gentleman  I am  sure  that  our  countrymen  in  the  West 


68 


would  act  the  part  of  brethren  ; hut.  Sir,  with  a defenceless 
■'sea-board  of  j^reat  extent,  unprotected  by  a naval  armament, 
(wliich  armament  the  East  now  contributes  to  support,)  our 
Western  coadjutors  would  find  on  their  arrival,  the  vestiges 
of  a victorious  enemy,  in  our  desolated  towns  and  smoking 
villages.  TItcy  would  find,  too,  that  they  were  deeply  inter- 
ested in  our  weal  or  woe,  because  in  the  body  politic,  as  in 
the  Jiatural  body,  the  affection  of  any  one  part  Mull  be  felt  by 
the  M'liole  system. 

But  the  gentleman  from  Hillsborough,  aw^are  that  the  reve- 
nue furnished  by  the  East  to  the  General  Government,  is  in 
its  consequences  advantageous  to  North-Carolina  at  large, 
attempts  to  evade  tlie  conclusion  drawn  from  the  fact,  by  tell- 
ing us  that  these  revenues  are  paid  by  tlie  Western  people, 
the  consumers  of  the  articles,  and  not  the  merchants.  Mr. 
H.  said  it  was  true  that  the  consumer  paid  the  duty,  but  it 
M'as  also  undeniably  true,  that  the  tax  did  not  fall  on  the  peo- 
ple of  the  West,  for  a very  small  proportion  of  the  importa- 
tions of  the  East  ever  passed  to  tlie  Westof  the  spot  on  which 
he  stood. 

When  I reflect,  Mr.  Chairman,  said  Mr.  H.  that  these  re- 
solutions are  but  an  invitation  to  us  to  sit  in  judgment  upon 
our  ancestors,  I am  forcibly  reminded  of  the  lines  of  a great 
poet,  alike  remarkable  for  his  knoM'ledge  of  human  nature 
and  for  the  sarcastic  powers  of  his  muse  : 

“We  think  our  fathers  fools,  so  wise  we  grow, 

“ Our  sons  in  future  times  will  tlunk  us  so.” 

Sir,  M"ere  this  nothing  more  than  an  invitation  to  charge 
with  folly  those  who  have  preceded  us,  I would  now  resume 
my  seat ; but  I see  in  it  something  more,  our  as.sistance  is 
asked  to  unbind  and  let  loo.se  upon  the  calm  surface  of  that 
political  sea  on  which  we  at  present  ride  in  safety,  the  angry 
winds  of  faction.  That  surface  may  be  lashed  by  those  winds 
into  billows,  on  which  some  few  may  float  in  safety  to  office 
and  to  honor,  but  when  M'e  would  fain  see  its  turbulent  waves 
once  more  at  peace,  M’e  may  look  around  in  vain  for  the 
master  spirit  who  can  “ ride  upon  the  M’hirlM’ind  and  direct 
the  storm”  of  a political  tempest. 

One  word  more.  In  my  soul  I do  believe  the  proposed 
measure  inexpedient ; and  I beg  my  countrymen  to  bear  in 
mind,  that  to  make  a Constitution  is  one  thing,  to  make  a 
good  one  is  another.  Our  present  Constitution  is  a fabric 
reared  by  our  fathers,  and  within  its  walls  we  have  lived  for 
many  years  in  safety  ; in  tearing  it  down,  to  erect  a more 
modern  edifice  in  its  place,  we  may  be  overwhelmed'  in  jts- 
ruins,  we  may  sow  the  wind  only  to  reap  the  whirlwind. 


69 


Mr.  Stanly  said,  that  rising  under  the  disadvantage  of 
addressing  tlie  House,  after  tlic  subject  had  been  very  fully 
discussed,  he  would  detain  them  but  a short  time,  while  he 
humbly  gleaned  over  the  field  which  others  had  reaped. 

The  question  under  consideration  is  not  one  of  the  common 
interest  of  legislation,  an  error  in  which  admits  of  an  early 
correction.  We  have  before  us  a proposition  to  abolish  that 
Constitution  which  we,  and  our  fathers  before  us,  have  reve- 
renced as  the  charter  of  our  liberties,  and  to  trust  to  the  un- 
certainty of  chance  for  a better.  Before  we  venture  upon 
this  hazard,  let  us  cast  an  eye  upon  the  Constitution  which 
it  is  proposed  to  destro}^  The  instrument  we  speak  of,  is 
not  the  formation  of  yesterjtlay  ; it  is  tijat  institution  under 
which  we  have  lived  since  the  birth  of  our  Independence ; 
which  has  secured  to  us  our  lives,  our  liberty  and  the  pursuit 
of  happiness  ; w'hich  has  proved  itself  amply  competent  to  all 
the  objects  of  national  prosperity  ; wdiich  claims  our  venera- 
tion and  confidence  for  all  the  sanctions  which  time  and  ex- 
perience can  give,  and  from  the  assurance  that  under  it  we 
enjoy  every  blessing  which  belongs  to  man  in  society.  With 
equal  rights  to  acquire  and  enjoy  property  : the  right  to  ho- 
nor and  office  is  also  equal,  and  the  poorest  man  in  the  com- 
munity, presses  his  infant  boy  to  his  bosom,  with  the  cheer- 
ing reflection,  that  with  industry,  virtue  and  talents,  his  son 
may  aspire  to  the  highest  offices  of  the  State.  Such  is  the 
Constitution  we  now  possess  : the  work  of  man,  it  cannot  be 
perfect : like  other  human  institutions,  a mixture  of  good  and 
evil,  it  has  its  defects  : but  the  evils  imputed  to  it  should  not 
only  be  manifest,  but  should  be  great,  before  we  venture  on 
the  dreadful  experiment  of  destroying  it,  with  no  certainty 
w’hat  WT  are  to  obtain  in  its  place. 

The  gentlemen  who  advocate  the  call  of  a convention,  al- 
lege the  evils  of  the  Constitution  are  to  be  found, 

1.  In  the  unequal  representation  of  the  people. 

2.  In  the  want  of  power  in  the  Legislature  to  remove  the 
Judges. 

3.  In  the  mode  of  appointing  militia  officers. 

Other  objections,  if  they  have  them,  they  have  not  thought 
proper  to  mention. 

The  objection  to  the  Constitution  on  the  ground  of  unequal 
representation,  is  attempted  to  be  supported,  upon  the  allega- 
tion that  the  right  of  representation  is  equal  ; that  the  same 
number  of  persons  have  the  same  rights,  and  should  have  the 
same  influence  in  government,  or  in  other  words,  that  popu- 
lation should  govern  representation. 

In  passing  to  an  examination  of  the  foundation  of  their 
claims,  M.  S.  said,  he  wmuld  barely  notice  a difficulty  which 


70 


at  the  tlireshold  met  these  advocates  of  equal  rights  of  all 
persons.  If  all  persons  have  equal  rigiits,  why  are  women 
excluded  ? Wljy  are  minors  excluded  ? Because  there  are 
other  considerations  tlian  tlie  mere  existence  of  a person,  to 
support  a claim  to  a share  in  government,  his  views  of  which, 
it  was  his  pui-pose  to  offer ; at  present,  he  would  without 
levity  say,  that  in  his  opinion,  the  exemption  of  the  sex  was 
rather  a privilege  than  an  exclusion  : their  duties  were  of  'a 
higher,  a more  important,  and  of  a more  interesting  nature — 
the  instruction  of  their  children,  the  care  of  their  household, 
and  the  happiness  of  their  husbands. 

The  imputed  erroi*  of  representation  under  the  Constitu- 
tion is  divided  into  two  parts  ; first,  tliat  the  counties  of  the 
Eastern  half  of  the  State,  with  a less  white  population,  have 
a greater  number  of  Representatives  in  the  Legislature  than 
the  counties  of  the  Western  half;  and  second,  that  particular 
small  counties  have  as  many  Representatives  as  the  largest. 

To  test  the  solidity  of  these  objections,  it  is  necessary  to 
ascend  to  an  enquiry  into  the  elementary  principles  oe 
SOCIETY.  Society  is  not  formed,  said  Mr.  S.  inei’ely  to  es- 
tablish the  right  nor  to  regulate  the  conduct  of  its  members, 
in  i-egard  to  j)crsonal  liberty  ; if  this  were  the  sole  object  of 
government,  the  personal  liberty  being  the  same,  the  rights 
of  all  would  be  equal ; but,  (without  seeking  for  higher  or 
older  authority,)  from  the  time  when  it  was  commanded, 
“ thou  shall  not  steal,  thou  shalt  not  covet  thy  neighbour’s 
goods,”  the  right  to  acquire  and  to  enjoy  property  is  as  clear-: 
ly  established,  and  is  as  essential  to  the  enjoyment  of  life,  as 
the  right  of  personal  liberty.  The  rich  are  people,  rs  well  as 
the  poor,  and  the  right  of  property,  whether  large  or  small, 
is  alike  sacred.  This  security  equally  benefits  those  who  al- 
ready possess,  and  those  who  seek  to  acquire  property — it 
stimulates  to  enterprize  and  industry.  Revenue  is  the  vital 
principle  of  government : without  it,  its  wheels  are  effectu- 
ally stopped:  this  revenue,  property  pays.  We  hold  it, 
therefore,  a fundamental  principle  in  government,  that  bar- 
riers should  be  erected  for  the  security  of  property  ; that  the 
possessors  of  the  j)ropcrty  of  a State,  or  of  a District,  should 
have  a weight  in  its  affairs,  proportioned  to  the  contribution 
they  make  to  its  support,  and  to  the  State  which  they  have 
placed  upon  its  prosperity.  Not  in  government  only,  but  in 
every  association  for  the  management  of  propei'ty,  this  prin- 
ciple is  seen  to  operate.  In  Banks,  in  Navigation  Compa- 
nies, in  estates  held  in  common,  the  influence  or  control  of 
each  proprietoi*  is  proportioned  to  the  amount  he  has  contri- 
buted to  the  Common  Stock. 


n 


That  no  man’s  property  can  rightfully  be  taken  without 
his  consent,  in. other  words,  that  taxation  and  nEPRESEN- 
TATiON  are  inseparable,  w as  the  very  basis  of  our  Revolution. 
The  violation  of  tliis  principle  by  the  parent  counti-y,  first 
provoked  our  resistance  ; on  this  solid  ground,  that  taxation 
and  representation  were  inseparable,  our  fathei’s  planted  the 
Standard  of  Independence.  To  prove  this,  Mr.  S.  said  he 
wou'd  read  short  extracts  from  some  of  those  eloquent  re- 
monstrances addressed  by  tlie  Colonies  to  Great-Britain  at 
the  commencement  of  tlie  Revolutionary  contest.  T.  he  Book 
was  a volume  of  Marshall’s  Life  of  Washington,  which  he 
found  at  hand. 

[Mr.  S.  here  read  extracts  from  various  addresses  of  the 
American  Colonies  to  the  British  Government,  in  which  it 
was  claimed  as  a “ fundamental  axiom,  that  taxation  and  re- 
presentation aj*e  inseparable  from  each  other  — “ Itiat  the 
security  of  i-ight  and  piojjerty  is  the  great  end  of  govern- 
ment — “That  such  measures  as  tend  to  I'ender  right  and 
property  irrecarious,  tend  to  desti-oy  both  property  and  gov- 
ernment, for  these  must  stand  or  fall  together  — That  “ the 
proprietors  of  the  soil  are  lords  of  their  ow  n property,  which 
cannot  be  taken  from  tiiem  without  their  own  consent and 
“ that  it  is  essentially  a right  that  a man  shall  quietly  enjoy 
and  have  the  disirosal  of  his  own  property.”] 

From  what  source  more  pure  can  authorities  be  drawn  ? 
But  he  would  not  limit  the  range  of  enquiry  : In  every  coun- 
try where  the  light  of  property  exists,  the  rule  must  be  found. 
All  Republics,  ancient  and  modern,  Sparta,  Athens,  Rome, 
Venice,  Bern  and  Holland,  all  had  their  separate  body  rejire- 
senting  property  and  rank.  The  majority  in  every  country 
are  men  without  property ; if  numbers  alone  should  decide, 
the  greater  number  would  take  the  property  of  the  less.  Cer- 
tainly that  government  cannot  be  free,  nor  can  it  enjoy  Con- 
stitutional liberty,  which  excludes  the  people,  how'ever  poor, 
from  a shaie  in  its  administration ; they  are  the  bones  and 
sinews  of  the  State,  and  their  voice  must  be  heard  : yet  assu- 
redly all  power  of  government  is  not  to  be  trusted,  uncon- 
trolled, in  such  hands.  In  every  age,  and  in  every  climate, 
man  is  the  same  ; — unchecked,  he  is  found  unjust,  tyrannical 
and  cruel.  The  rights  of  the  minority  must  be  protected  j 
Government  must  be  balanced  with  a view'  to  the  protection 
of  the  whole,  and  (o  that  end,  in  a general  sense,  and  in  a 
general  form,  property  must  have  its  w'eight  and  influence. 
This  principle  for  w hich  he  contended,  Mr.  S.  said,  had  ex- 
isted in  this  country  from  its  earliest  settlement.  The  gen- 
tleman from  Salisbury,  (Mr.  Fisher,)  had  reminded  us,  that 


72 


ioiii^  ])i'ior  to  tlic  Revolution,  a freehold  qualilication  w as  rc^ 
quiied  foi-  electors  of  the  Assembly  and  for  i-eprescntatives  ; 
to  the  present  hour,  our  laws  hold  no  man  woi  tliy  of  the 
trust  of  a juroi-,  who  is  not  a freeholder.  It  is  found  in  tlie 
Constitution  of  the  United  States,  w'hich  regulates  represen- 
tation by  tlie  rule  of  direct  taxation  ; and  in  the  Constitutions 
of  all  the  States,  which  require  a qualilication  of  j)roj)crty  in 
tiu-  elector  or  tlie  elected.  He  considered  the  principle  for 
wdiich  he  contended,  as  established  and  consecrated  by  the 
authors  of  our  glorious  Revolution,  of  whom  it  was  but  just 
to  say,  that  their  merits,  as  legislators,  will  remain  inscribed 
on  the  laii-est  monuments,  when  the  memory  of  their  splendid 
YjCtories  shall  have  crumbled  into  dust. 

It  was  upon  tliis  principle,  Mr.  S.  said,  he  vindicated  our 
Constitution  frotn  tlie  unjust  attacks  now  made  upon  it,  and 
should  support  the  claim  of  the  Eastern  half  of  the  State  to 
the  share  which  it  possessed  in  the  Legislature. 

By  consulting  the  very  correct  Map  of  the  State,  by  I’rice 
and  Strother,  it  appeared,  that  the  point  midway  between  the 
Ocean  and  the  Tennessee  line,  on  the  northern  boundary  of 
the  State,  was  the  north-western  corner  of  Gi-anville  county ; 
suspending  a plumb,  or  drawing  a line  south  from  that  point, 
it  gave  to  the  Eastern  half  of  the  State,  thiidy-live  counties, 
including  the  whole  of  Granville,  all  Wake  but  a small  sec- 
tion on  its  south-west  corner,  the  greater  part  of  Cumbeidand 
and  Bladen  and  Brunswick.  In  his  calculations,  he  rejected 
Cumberland  from  the  East.  That  county  docs  not  go  with 
us,  and  we  take  no  benefit  of  its  weight  in  our  scale. 

From  the  Comptroller’s  Report  to  the  ju-esent  session,  of 
the  land-tax,  at  the  rate  of  six  cents  of  tax  for  every  one  hun- 
dred dollars  of  the  value,  the  value  of  the  lands  in  the  East- 
ern 35  counties,  rejecting  fractions,  is  Sl8,7l0,000 

And  the  value  of  the  lands  in  the  Western  coun- 
ties, at  the  same  rate,  is  1 5,252,000 

The  late  census  shew-s  that  the  Eastern  counties  contain 
113,891  slaves  j estimate  them  at  S250  each,  the  value  is 

S28, 472,750 

The  Western  counties  contain  91,026  slaves,  \ alue  22,756,500 
The  i-esult  of  these  statements,  gives  to  the  East  a property 
in  lands  and  slav^es  of  B47,000,000 

And  to  the  West  38,000,000 

Shewing  the  property  in  the  East,  in  these  items  only,  to 
exceed  that  of  the  West,  S9,000,000 

A])portion  the  whole  representation  of  the  sixty-two  coun- 
ties in  the  House  of  Commons,  (124  members)  by  this  esti- 
mate of  property,  and  the  East  will  he  entitled  to  sixty-cigiit 
members,  and  the  West  to  fifty-six  members. 


73 


That  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  State,  collected  by  the  she- 
riffs, for  the.  present  year,  is  sixty-six  thousand  dollars.  Of 
this  the  East  ]>aid  thirty-seven  thousand  dollars,  and  tlfe  West 
twenty-nine  thousand  dollars.  Apportion  the  representation 
by  taxation,  the  East  will  be  entitled  to  sixty-nine  members, 
the  West  to  fifty-five  members. 

Upon  the  basis  of  property  and  taxation,  then,  the  Eastern 
half  of  the  State  would  be  entitled  to  thirteen  representatives 
more  than  the  Western  half.  And  permit  me  to  say,  that  the 
growing  value  and  improvement  of  the  Eastern  section,  will 
continue  to  increase  the  difference  in  their  favor.  Before 
leaving  this  view  of  the  question,  it  was  proper  to  remark, 
that  there  was  other  property  not  brought  into  the  estimate. 
The  West  have  their  farms  stocked;  so  have  the  East:  but 
the  East  have  large  towns,  which  possess  and  employ  a con- 
siderable commercial  capital,  in  merchandize,  vessels,  &c. 
They  own  too,  unquestionably,  nine-tenths  of  the  bank  capi- 
tal of  the  State.  Against  these  funds,  amounting  to  many 
millions  more,  the  West  have  nothing  to  set  off. 

But  the  West  claim  the  advantage  of  numbers.  On  this 
point  I was  gratified,  said  Mr.  S.  to  hear  the  gentleman  from 
Hillsborough,  (Dr.  Smith)  admit  the  rule  of  federal  numbers 
to  be  the  proper  ground  of  calculation.  Certainly  this  is  cor- 
rect, and  objections  to  the  rule  would  come  with  an  ill  grace 
from  us,  who  enjoy  it  as  a l ight  in  our  compact  with  the 
Northern  States,  and  under  which  this  State  sends  three  re- 
presentatives to  Congress,  gives  three  votes  in  the  election  of 
President,  and  which  places  in  the  hands  of  the  Southern 
States,  the  power  to  turn  the  scale  in  the  election  of  Presi- 
dent. By  this  rule  of  apportioning  the  one  hundred  and  twen- 
ty-four members,  tlie  West  would  be  entitled  to  seventy -four, 
and  the  East  to  forty-nine  representatives.  Upon  the  average 
of  the  three  modes,  the  East  would  have  sixty -two,  and  the 
West  sixty-one  members. 

As  to  the  other  branch  of  the  objection,  arising  from  the 
equal  representation  of  counties  of  unequal  size  and  popula- 
tion, Mr.  S.  said,  if  any  injustice  resulted  from  this  circumr 
stance,  it  admitted  a remedy  without  a Convention:  the  Le- 
gislature was  competent  to  regulate  the  boundaries  of  coun- 
ties. But  no  rule  cduld  be  adopted  which  would  give  equality. 
The  counties  must  vary  daily,  as  well  in  population  as  in 
wealth  ; and  if  made  equal,  tlie  equality  could  not  be  preserv- 
ed for  a day.  In  his  view,  no  inconvenience  or  injustice  re- 
sulted from  the  existing  state  of  the  counties.  Eacii  section 
of  the  State  formed  one  great  community,  with  common  feel- 
ings and  interests ; there  were  small  counties  in  both  see- 

10 


74 


Uoiis;  ami  invai-iably  there  would  be  found  such  strong*  aifi- 
iiity  belwoon  llie  great  and  general  interests  of  adjoining 
counties,  great  and  small,  that  while  all  were  represented, 
ami  while  all  were  governed  by  the  same  laws,  tliere  could  be 
no  just  ground  of  jealousy  ; although  it  might  happen  the  re- 
presentative was  elected  by  three  liundred  men  in  one  county, 
and  by  three  thousand  in  the  next. 

Mr.  S.  said  iie  could  not  believe  that  the  Constih  ,'jon  was 
imperfect,  no!-  tlie  practice  under  it  unjust,  in  regard  to  the 
impoi'tant  matter  of  repi'eseutation.  Wealth,  taxation  and 
jjopiilation  each  had  its  influence.  For  the  opposite  claim, 
that  population  alone  should  govern  representation,  and  give 
laws  to  the.  State,  there  was  no  pretence  of  reason,  and  no 
sanction  of  authority.  North-Carolina,  he  hoj)ed,  would  not 
be  the  first  to  fall  into  a fanciful  experiment,  at  the  sacrifice 
of  a priitriple  of  the  utmost  magnitude. 

Mr.  S.  said  the  complaints  against  the  practice  under  the 
Constitution,  were  as  unfounded  as  tlic  charges  against  the 
Constitution  itself.  Our  laws  are  eipial ; good  or  bad,  we  all 
alike  live  under  tliem  : If  our  burdens  are  unequal,  it  is  the 
East  that  pays  the  larger  part  of  tiie  tax,  and  we  do  not  com- 
plain of  it.  Public  money  is  not  lavished  upon  the  East ; 
with  the  power  in  our  hands,  we  have  given  money  to  improve 
the  West,  and  have  taken  notliing  to  ourselves.  The  honors 
and  otiices  of  the  State,  the  loaves  and  fishes,  so  called,  from 
the  frugality  of  our  government,  arc  not  of  a kind  to  excite 
those  active  principles  of  the  human  breast,  avarice  and  am- 
bition ^ but  such  as  they  are,  the  West  have  more  titan  an 
equal  share,  and  at  this  moment,  as  is  generally  the  case, the 
far  greater  jiroportion  of  those  of  impoidance  are  filled  from 
the  S\  est.  It  is  fit,  also,  to  meniion  one  important  particular 
in  whicli  the  East,  have  given  the  wltole  power  to  tlie  West: 
I mean  the  power  of  choosing  tiic  electors  of  President  and 
Vice-President — since  by  the  general  ticket  election,  the 
West  having  more  votes  than  the  East,  can  elect  a ticl,iet,  in 
opposition  to  the  unanimous  vote  of  the  East.  This  surren- 
der of  riglit  and  power,  must  be  remembered  as  one  of  tln‘se 
sacrifices  of  public  good,  which,  in  times  past,  party  spirit 
made  to  party  purposes. 

The  next  objection  urged  against  the  Constitution,  is  that 
advanced  by  tlie  gentleman  from  Richmond  (Mr.  Leake,)  : 
The  want  of  a more  speedy  means  of  removing  tlie  Judges  of 
the  Superior  aud  Supreme  Courts,  than  that  of  impeachment 
for  crimes  : in  other  words,  the  want  of  a provision  to  make 
the  tenure  id’  t'u  4iice  of  Judgr  to  be  not  during  his  good  be- 
haviour, but  during  the  pleasure  of  the  Legislature.  Mr.  S. 


75 


said,  he  had  hoped  a doctrine  so  dangerous  to  the  best  inter- 
ests of  the  country,  would  never  again  have  found  an  a<lvo- 
cafe  in  tliis  House.  By  the  forms  of  government  happily 
adopted  in  these  States,  the  Executive,  Legislative  and  Ju- 
dicial departments  are  made  separate  and  distinct : the  Con- 
stitution limiting  and  superintending  the  operations  of  the 
Legislature.  The  Legislature  is  bound  to  act  within  certain 
prescribe^  limits ; its  power  is  strictly  defined.  Can  the 
agent  transcend  the  authority  given  by  his  principal  ? — and. 
if  he  does,  shall  not  the  will  of  the  master,  the  people,  be  pre- 
ferred to  the.  will  of  the  servant,  the  Legislature  ? With 
power  to  make  laws,  and  with  power  to  execute  them,  the 
Legislature  would  have  been  despotic.  To  prevent  tliis  evil, 
to  check  the  Legislature,  to  confine  its  acts  within  the  limits 
marked  out  in  the  Constitution,  the  Judiciary,  as  a separate 
and  independent  branch  of  government  was  created.  Impor- 
tant as  this  department  is,  it  has  no  control  over  the  strength 
or  the  wealth  of  the  State,  it  has  no  capacity  to  injure ; it  is 
the  least  dangerous  and  weakest  of  the  departments  : yet  as 
it  is  its  pi'ovince  to  protect  the  citizen  against  the  oppression 
of  the  Legislature,  it  is  justly  regarded  as  the  citadel  of 
public  justice  and  public  safety.  Experience  has  shewn  that 
passion  and  injustice,  at  periods,  have  influenced  every  com- 
munity : the  favorite  of  one  day,  has  been  the  victim  of  the 
next,  and  systems  of  policy  and  ambition,  of  folly,  or  of  w is- 
dom, have  flourished  and  fallen  with  their  authors.  This  de- 
pai-tment,  the  Judiciary,  has  been  created,  separate,  co-oidi- 
nate  and  independent,  to  check  the  career  of  the  Legislature  ; 
to  bring  us  to  pause,  and  by  compelling  reflection,  to  protect 
us  against  our  worst  enemies,  ourselves  ! While  you  secure 
its  independence,  you  preserve  its  integrity  and  fii-mness  : 
and  it  remains  what  the  Cotistitution  intended  it  should  be, 
the  ark  of  our  safety  : but  if  you  render  the  Judges  depen- 
dent on  the  Legislature  for  the  continuance  of  their  offices, 
and  the  supply  of  their  bread,  you  barter  independence  and 
virtue  for  servility  and  corruption  : 3 011  convert  the  sentinel 
into  an  enemy,  and  render  that  department  a curse,  which 
was  designed  for  a blessing.  Mr.  S.  said,  these  truths  were 
so  obvious,  and  the  observations  to  enforce  tliem  so  trite, 
that  he  had  believed  a do<  trine  so  dangerous  as  that  he  now 
opposed,  a doctrine  w hich  claimed  omnipotence  for  the  Le- 
gislature, and  dependence  for  the  Judiciary,  had  ceased  to  ex- 
ist, except  as  rare  and  melancholy  instances  of  partial  luna- 
cy ; and  he  fervently  prayed  that  the  malady  might  not  be 
more  extensively  injurious  to  the  individuals  afflicted. 


76 


The  mode  of  appointing  militia  officers  mentioned  by  the 
same  gentleman  as  an  objection  to  the  Constitution,  Mr.  S. 
consi<Iered  as  of  no  consequence.  As  the  militia  ought  to  be, 
the  whole  body  of  free  men  armed  atid  disciplined,  the  com- 
mand would  be  interesting  ; but  as  they  are  ! not  unifoi'm  ei- 
ther in  arms  or  dress,  and  without  discipline ; who  are  their 
officers,  or  liow  they  arc  chosen,  was  not  worth  considera- 
tion. 

The  gentleman  fi'om  Hillsborough,  (Dr.  Smith)  is  pleased 
to  say,  tliere  should  be  no  objection  to  a Convention,  for  a 
Conventio)!  could  not  injure  us.  Surely  I misconceived  the 
genth man’s  meaning.  Passing  over  tlie  heavy  expenditure 
wliicl)  must  attend  tlie  measure,  I ask  will  not  a Convention 
be  unrestj-ained  ? Will  it  not  have  absolute  power  ? Who 
can  control  it  ? Does  not  the  foi-mation  of  a Constitution 
I’equire  the  greatest  effort  of  human  genius,  directed  by  the 
purest  virtue  ? What  secuiaty  have  we,  that  a Convention 
to  be  now  assembled,  would  be  thus  enlightened  and  guided  ? 
May  they  not  authorise  encroachments  still  further  than  we 
have  already  made  on  the  right  of  trial  by  Jury  ? May  they 
not  render  the  Legislature  despotic,  and  life  and  property  in- 
secure, by  destroying  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary  ? 
May  they  not  adopt  the  notion  to  day  advocated,  of  regulat- 
ing representation  solely  by  population  ? May  they  not,  in 
short,  while  they  ])reserve  the  form  of  Republican  Govern- 
ment, mar  the  enjoyment  of  every  right,  and  abridge  every 
blessing  of  prosperity  ? We  know  that  a Convention  may  do 
these  mighty  mischiefs : this  is  sufficient  to  w^arrant.  us  in 
withholding  the  power,  until  evils  which  do  not  yet  exist  un- 
der the  present  Constitution,  require  so  hazardous  a remedy. 
It  is  true  other  States  have  had  Conventions,  but  Mi*.  S.  said, 
he  believ'ed  it  was  also  true,  that,  with  very  few  exceptions, 
they  had  not  improved  the  condition  of  the  States  in  which 
they  had  been  qallcd,  but  had  left  tliem  worse  than  they  found 
them. 

The  authority  of  Vattel,  read  by  the  gentleman  from  Hills- 
borough, Mr.  S.  said,  he  considered  entitled  to  more  respect 
than  was  paid  by  those  who  sneered  at  his  “ worm-eaten  pa- 
ges.” Vattel  gives  as  his  opinion,  “ that  a nation  may  change 
its  Constitution,  by  a majority  of  votes  ; and  whenever  there 
is  nothing  in  this  change  that  can  be  considered  as  contrary 
to  the  act  of  the  civil  association,  or  to  the  intention  of  those 
united  under  it,  all  are  hound  to  conform  to  the  resolution  of 
the  majority.”  Tfiat  the  power  of  the  nation  is  unlimited, 
cannot  be  denied — all  power  rests  in  the  people  : they  made 
the  Constitution,  and  physically,  a majority  can  destroy  it. 


77 


Yet  the  Constitution  spoken  of  by  Vattel,  was  that  unwritten 
form  of  government,  resulting  from  usage,  which  alone  had 
existed  at  the  period  in  which  he  wrote.  And  one  view  of 
this  subject  Vattel  could  not  take,  because  it  results  from  a 
state  of  things  not  existing  in  his  day.  I mean  the  formation 
of  written  Constitutions  by  a free  people.  When  the  people 
of  these  States  declared  that  all  connexion  between  them  and 
Great-Britain  was  dissolved,  and  that  they  were  free,  sove- 
reign and  independent,  tliey  reduced  their  act  of  civil  asso- 
ciation” to  writing  : they  formed  written  Constitutions.  By 
the  terms  of  this  association,  by  this  written  Constitution,  the 
people  surrendered  their  natural  rights  into  the  hands  of  the 
Legislature,  except  so  far  as  by  express  reservation  they  re- 
tained them.  With  great  caution  the  people  of  this  State  pre- 
fixed to  their  Constitution  a jBttt  of  Rights,  which  1 under- 
stand to  be  an  enumeration  of  rights  reserved,  and  of  powers 
not  granted.  Is  this  power  to  form  a Convention  and  des- 
troy the  Constitution  reserved  ? Is  the  power  reserved  to  a 
portion  of  the  people,  without  the  consent  of  tlie  reprasenta- 
tives  of  tlie  whole,  expressed  in  an  act  of  tlie  Legislature,  to 
form  a Convention  ? And  if  the  power  is  not  reserved,  would 
not  such  a Convention,  in  the  words  of  Vattel,  be  ‘‘  contrary 
to  the  act  of  association,  and  to  the  intention  of  those  who 
united  under  it  ?”  A portion  of  the  people  may  assemble,  but 
to  me  it  seems,  said  Mr.  S.  it  will  be  nothing  more  than  the 
exercise  of  the  “ holy  right  of  insurrection,”  which,  as  it  suc- 
ceeds or  not,  may  be  termed  rebellion  or  revolution.  At  all 
events,  the  inference  is  strong,  that  the  right  to  form  a Con- 
vention and  to  alter  the  Constitution,  without  the  sanction  of 
the  Legislature,  is  not  believed  to  exist : since  in  every  State 
it  has  originated  with  the  Legislature,  and  though  often  ap- 
plied for,  and  repeatedly  refused,  no  attempt  has  ever  been 
made  to  proceed  without  Legislative  sanction.  And  the  re- 
peated applications  from  a portion  of  this  State,  to  the  Legis- 
lature, for  a Convention,  shew  beyond  contradiction,  that  they 
act  under  the  conviction  that  a Legislative  authority  is  neces- 
sary, to  justify  the  measure. 

Mr.  S.  said  he  would  recommejid  to  the  gentleman  from 
Hillsborough,  to  extend  his  study  of  Tattel  to  the  following 
sections  of  the  chapter  he  had  read  ; he  would  find  Vattel 
there  inculcating  “ that  great  changes  in  a State  being  deli- 
cate and  very  dangerous  affairs,  and  frequent  changes  being 
in  their  own  nature  prejudicial,  a peoj)le  ought  to  be  very  cir- 
cumspect in  doing  it,  and  never  be  inclined  to  make  innovations 
without  the  most  pressing  reasons,  or  an  absolute  necessity.’* 


78 


Mr.  S.  said  he  believed  a Convention  to  change  the  Con- 
stitution, was  unnecessary  : tliat  the  grounds  offered  in  sup- 
port of  tliat  measure  were  unjust  and  untenable  : that  in  go- 
ing into  a Convention,  we  put  at  hazard  a Constitution  which, 
if  not  perfect,  was  upon  the  whole,  a good  one,  while  we  could 
have  no  certainty  what  we  should  obtain  in  its  place.  He  felt 
himself  boimd  to  vote  against  tlie  Resolutions. 

The  Committee  agreed  to  rise,  and,  on  motion,  recom- 
mended to  the  House  a rejection  of  the  Resolutions  under  de- 
bate, which  Report  was  concurred  with,  81  votes  to  47.  The 
Yeas  and  Nays  were  as  follows  : 

YEAS. — J.  Adams,  Andres,  Alston,  Alford,  Brickell,  Bryan,  Blackledge, 
Blount,  Ballard,  Barringer,  Blair,  Bozman,  Boykin,  Bateman,  Barden,  Bur- 
g'Css,  T.  Bell,  Biu-ns,  Copeland,  Cowan,  Dai'den,  Dawson,  Daniel,  Dulany, 
Forbes,  Gregory,  Gary,  liardin,  Hawkins,  Hurst,  Hillman,  Hai’rell,  Hooker, 
Humphrey,  Hassell,  Hawks,  Hastings,  Hinton,  Jordan,  Jones,  Jai'inan,  Jef- 
freys, Joyner,  Lloyd,  Lamon,  Larkins,  Moore,  Mercer,  M’Millan,  M’Daniel, 
Morgan,  M’Leod,  M’Eachen,  Martin,  Nixon,  Pugh,  Peete,  Riddick,  StjTon, 
Shipp,  Skinner,  Simmons,  Stephens,  R.  Sneed,  Spencer,  T.  Sneed,  Slade, 
Sillers, ^Stanly,  Turner,  Tull,  Vail,  AVebster,  Watson,  Waddell,  Watkins. 
Wynns,  Wilkins,  Webb,  Wilder,  Whitfield. — 81. 

NAYS. — Anderson,  W.  Adams,  Benton,  Barbee,  Brittain,  Beall,  Brower, 
Baird,  Collins,  Clement,  Carson,  Durgan,  Edmonston,  Freeman,  Flynt,  Fisher, 
N.  Gordon,  J.  Gordon,  Graves,  Henry,  James  L.  Hill,  Holland,  John  Hill, 
Hampton,  Isbell,  Love,  Lane,  Leake,  M’Neill,  M’Lean,  Melchor,  Morgan, 
M’Dowell,  M’Neill,  M’Comb,  Morehead,  Miller,  Rea,  Rats,  Roberts,  W.  D. 
Smith,  Shaw,  Strange,  J.  S.  Smith,  Tyson,  Vaughan,  White. — 17. 


IN  SENATE. 

0 

Resolutions  for  obtaining  the  same  object  were  introduced 
into  tlie  Senate  by  Mr.  Williamson,  from  Lincoln  County; 
but  owing  to  the  pressure  of  business,  and  the  Session  being 
near  its  close,  tliey  underwent  no  discussion. 

On  a motion  to  indefinitely  postpone  their  consideration, 
the  Yeas  and  Nays  were  as  follows  : 

YEAS — Messrs.  Alston,  Albritton,  Bryan,  Boddie,  Beasley,  Campbell,  (of 
New-Hanover)  Davis,  Daniel,  Frink,  Flowers,  Gentry,  Green.  Gordon,  Gavin, 
Hoskins,  Hatch,  Hyman,  Jordan,  Kenan,  I.eonard,  Lamb,  Lindsay,  (of  Curri- 
tuck) Miller,  Outlaw,  Peebles,  Pool,  Robason,  Richardson,  Riddick,  Spaight 
(of  Craven)  Speight,  (of  Greene)  Sumnei’,  Smith,  Seawell,  Vanhook,  Walker. 
—36. 

NAYS. — Messrs.  Beard,  Bray,  Bradley,  Campbell,  (of  Iredell)  Deberry, 
Graves,  Jluckabee,  House,  Holt,  Lindsay,  (of  Rowan)  Marshall,  M’Leaiy, 
Perkins,  PhaiT,  Parker,  Person,  Raiborn,  Ruffin,  Scales,  Thomas,  Williamson, 
Wade,  Wellborn. — 33.  / 


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